Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Not your average "pro-choicers"

Jen at Conversion Diary attended the Walk for Life West Coast last weekend in San Francisco, and I was fascinated by the photos she posted of the "pro-choice" counter-protesters (who were a tiny handful compared to the throngs of pro-lifers).

Now, I realize it's San Francisco and all, but I am interested in the average liberal's reaction to the following pictures, which Jen was kind enough to permit me to use:



The generous use of sacrilege, via anti-Christian signs and open mockery of Christian symbols, is clearly an important tactic for these folks as they show their support for abortion.



This sign was so offensive that I took Jen's cue and obscured part of it. Note the upside-down cross on the women's face who is holding the sign.




The elaborate costumes and disguises are interesting.... It reminds me more of a gay pride parade than a pro-abortion protest.



How terribly heartbreaking to see a young girl dressed up in costume and holding an anti-Catholic sign. Children are naturally pro-life, so I can only imagine what this girl has been told about the need to terminate the unborn.



In case you think that all "pro-choicers" want abortion to be rare, please note that this man's "halo" reads, Thank God for abortion. Many others wore the same sign. Again, the message on the banner was so vulgar that I have obscured it.


What you can't see in these disturbing photos is what Jen saw in real life: "Some of them put on little impromptu plays where they’d pretend to be Jesus or Mary and pantomime lurid sexual acts, shouting profanity-laden narration all the while."

Sigh.

When I got past my initial revulsion of it all, including the outrageous (but expected) anti-Catholic bigotry, I was left with a deep sense of sadness for these people. Despite the exaggerated display of "happiness" you find on some of their faces as they mock the pro-life marchers (check the first three photos), they are clearly deeply troubled souls. My heart goes out to them. There's a lot more I want to say about that, but I will just suggest that they need our love and prayers.

Meanwhile, here are some questions that come to mind, and I welcome the thoughts of any atheists/secularists who want to help me understand:

1) Why do you think that this largely homosexual group is so invested in abortion rights? What is the connection?

2) What do you think of the anti-Catholic bigotry that you see on display here?  (Or, do you even see bigotry?)

3) Do you think this is a fringe group of "pro-choicers" and do you denounce their tactics? Or are you proud to have them courageously carrying the "pro-choice" banner for the rest of you?

Please feel free to answer any or all, or add your own thoughts and comments.

Thanks!

119 comments:

  1. Not atheist or secular but thought it would also be good to present some Catholic responses. I look forward to hearing the other side!

    1) Because of poorly represented and handled opposition to homosexuality, gays as a whole (not all, of course) have rebelled from conservative Christianity, which frequently includes pro-life Christians. Therefore, they (again, generalizing) have adopted the old axiom, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

    2)First off, there is anti-Catholic bigotry, whether or not some choose to close their eyes to it. Secondly, I think it is sad. I think it is intended to offend, but all I see in it is a bunch of worked-up anti-Catholic protesters who have nothing but the temporal to feel good about. Even that happiness is fleeting. So they take out their misery and unhappiness on their perceived persecutors. I am sorry for them. I pray for them. I wish God's Grace on their lives.

    3)I'd say that just the fact that they're being aggressively pro-choice enough to attend a march makes them fringe. Whereas pro-lifers have a high attendance to marches and events, pro-abortion advocates tend to be less involved in the active side of abortion. This is of course understandable as they see it as a privacy issue rather than a life issue. That said, their behavior also seems fringe to me. I can't imagine a single one of my pro-abortion friends behaving in this manner. Dressing up in "audacious" costumes, certainly, but the intentional and nasty aggression I would be surprised to see, to say it mildly.

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  2. I remember protestors like this when I attended the March. You're right. First I was horrified, then I was sad for them.

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  3. I was on that side not so long ago. I attended Marches. I held up pro-choice signs. I enjoyed the party-like atmosphere created by such outlandish and extravagant people. But as I got to know many of them, I discovered nearly all of them to be lost souls with such damage lives they have turned to living in the moment and using shock value to get attention. It wasn't even about the causes they protested or supported: it was about dancing on the edge to see how far they could go before they fell off. I am going through my own struggles now as I've not only returned to my Christian roots, but am going through RCIA to become Catholic which has greatly offended family and friends. DD

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  4. ahhhh! the only ones they hurt are themselves. this should be ignored like a childs tantrum. that being said it makes me want to fight ....so sad. the sad thing is that they cant really find anything else to shock us with that we havent seen already. filth.

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  5. Those pictures are repellent. Vile. Abhorrent. Disgusting. Foul.

    Actually, my thesaurus doesn't contain a word that adequately describes them.

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  6. Can you imagine if Catholics behaved that way at a gay rights rally?? But we don't. You're right, more than anything it's just sad.

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  7. I really don't get it and you asked some great questions. I look forward to reading someone's answers about it all.

    At our Jericho March, we try to speak with this group and it seems with most of them it ultimately comes down to the fact that they (or someone they know) had an abortion. In my view, by drawing attention to themselves, they are somehow validating their abortion. It is very twisted, but I think all we can do is pray for them.

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  8. In my experience, Grace is a million percent right. It usually comes down to the fact that they've had an abortion and this is their way of justifying it without having to think too deeply about it, or come to grips with it. If you attempted to get into a civil philosophical or scientific debate with them you wouldn't get very far. They'd either start screaming or sobbing.

    As far as the gay males, I think it's as simple as protecting the radical leftist agenda. Abortion and gay marriage are inherently sacrosanct to them, whether it directly affects them or not. Protect one, protect them all.

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  9. Thanks for writing about this. What you've posted here is what we see at our local women's clinic when we go to pray... angry, vulgar, inappropriate, bigoted, bullies. This is the scene my dad also saw at the "March for Women's Lives" in DC. I know this doesn't represent all pro-choicers but I often wonder where the normal pro-choice crowd is when it comes time to take a stand for what they believe.

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  10. As an attorney we studied the constitutional and historical roots of the civil rights movement in law school. Remember that the Klu Klux Klan started off WITHOUT hoods and advocating for racial restrictions in a legal manner...
    When it became more clear that the majority of their communities did not agree with their hate-filled position, they put on the hoods and their actions became more violent, vulgar and murderous.

    I see this same progression in the anti-life movement,, they know they are losing most of the youth and they will get more and more shocking and hateful over the next few years as the tide of social opinion continues to turn, as I am convinced that in 1000 years we will look at abortion with the same shock and disgust as we now look at slavery, and that Roe v. Wade will become the Dred Scott of the 20th century...

    Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us all!

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  11. Wow! I'm dumbfounded. I used to be on the other side and went to a pro-choice rally in D.C. back in 89 and the most offensive sign people carried was "Bush, keep your's out of mine!"
    These are quite shocking to me. Not long after, I also went to a march in Phoenix when I just moved out here with my friend who did have an abortion and still nothing like this. The pro-life counter protesters were holding up their signs and a lady walked up to my friend and said "If you would stay off your back you wouldn't be in this mess."
    It was mean of this lady but it was also prophetic. So I guess, I'd say these are the fringe types. Both sides have them. But this is very sad. They have no idea what they're doing. They seem angry at the world and they're probably angry at God.

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  12. There 's a pic of a pro-abortion protester who was at the DC March for Life -- she's an older lady, brandishing a coat hanger and wearing a sign that says something like, "Pro-Lifers didn't think Dr. Tiller's life was worth anything." I looked at it and I thought... "If your side doesn't want all abortionists to be seen as Kermit Gosnells, the you shouldn't characterize all pro-lifers as Scott Roeders." What's really pathetic is that 5 minutes on Google would have shown her that the vast majority of pro-life organizations condemned Tiller's murder. Hah. The ignorance astounds me.

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  13. The thing is, we all recognize that this is a FRINGE group, not how the majority of those who advocate for abortion-rights behave. I do honestly feel that the majority of pro-choicers are acting out of what they believe to be compassion, and in THAT way, their taking a stand is admirable to me. They are just not as well-informed as they should be, and turn a blind eye to the REST of the truth behind unplanned pregnancies. (Unplanned being a purposely calculated word choice there, because a large percentage of abortions are NOT unwanted, just unplanned... and some are even planned.)

    But what I wish the other side could see is that the abortion bombers and vocally offensive pro-lifers are the counterpart to the fringe you demonstrate above. They are a MINORITY, and NOT what the pro-life camp stands for. And yet you will never hear them mention anything other than OUR fringe.

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  14. Wow--dumbfounded. I can't believe people could act with such hatred. God is merciful but He is also a Just God. How much longer is He going to tolerate us?

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  15. Leila, you've got to read "Secular Sabotage"!!!

    This is so sad but it happens more often than we realize :(

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  16. Demrie Margo...wow, that is an amazing story of grace! I hope we can support you in any way you need. Please email me if you would like, at littlecatholicbubble@gmail.com. I'd love to hear more about your story.

    Thanks, everyone, for all the good insights and observations. Keep 'em coming. Amy, great points.

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  17. When I read Jen's post, I got a flash back to exiting the Papal Mass in Washington D.C. in April 2008.

    It was a beautiful, beautiful Mass and thousands of people left the stadium with joy and calm. Every single person was happy!

    Then we walked right into the meanest group of Anti-Catholic protesters I'd ever seen. (This wasn't even pro-choice, just the straight "Catholics are evil and are all going to hell"). One protester handed my 5 year old daughter a newspaper with a smile. I looked down and it had a vulgar, awful picture of the Virgin Mary. I was horrified and ripped it out of her hands.

    We left the nuns to pray for the screaming anti-Catholic protesters and walked 2 miles to the next subway stop rather than wait in line and hear the stuff they screamed at us.

    At the time I was shocked that "Mass" could be so controversial. Now I think that where-ever there is a great well spring of grace, there is going to be backlash.

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  18. Makes me sick and want to vom!!! What I don't understand is why they react with such anger and viciousness.... It's one thing to disagree, it's another to act so harshly. Horrible!

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  19. I'm intrigued to see people's answers to this questions, especially non-Catholics:
    1) Why do you think that this largely homosexual group is so invested in abortion rights? What is the connection?

    My two cents would be that because homosexuality, contraception, and abortion are all connected in the way that they all deal with the degradation of human sexuality - a lack of understanding who we are to our deepest core and how that plays out through our bodies. While I would assume that most people in a homosexual relationship wouldn't need abortion services (or contraception unless it was for protection from STIs), it all ties together because they all go with this idea that human sexuality is for pleasure and should be free from earthly and eternal consequences.

    I'm interested to hear how a secular viewpoint would tie them together.

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  20. Re #1, why the homosexual lobby is so invested in abortion...

    For two reasons,

    FIRST, because if one is allowed to kill a dependent child as a choice, anything that happens between consenting adults is ok as a choice as well, every issue no longer has a moral value, just choices that are great for one person but may not be for another.... I will even take a stand an postulate that a very small percentage would see pedophilia as a logical step as well (if an adult can make a choice to kill a child, why can't an adult make a choice to have a sexual
    relationship with a child)

    SECOND because the more children are seen as a commodity, the better - you can kill them, buy them, create them in a Petrie dish, harvest their organs, and pretty much do anything as long as the standard is what any adult WANTS (ie Elton John) or does NOT WANT (unwanted pg =abortion)

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  21. I'll say my one comment and leave it at that. I find it ironic that so many pro-lifers are quick to make a connection between the pro-life movement and the civil rights movement while in the same breath, vehemently calling homosexuals "deviant" and "degrading" and the sexual acts between same sex people as abhorrent. Unborn babies deserve rights but people with same sex attraction don't?

    1) I wouldn't presume that all of the protesters in these pictures are gay/lesbian/queer/transsexual. Yes there are men wearing feminine outfits. That still doesn't mean they ascribe to a homosexual orientation. My guess though is that they do support a choice of alternative lifestyle-perhaps one that isn't Christian, hetero-normative or conservative. And because of this underlying philosophy, I would guess that they support abortion as a choice for women in a difficult situation who may not be ready or capable to be parents or go through the adoption process. And they recognize that sex happens in all sorts of contexts and situations and sometimes it results in a baby and sometimes the potential for that pregnancy was unexpected. And they recognize that abortion is also an issue of healthcare for women (I know all of you will disagree) and that a woman does have a right to become a parent or not.

    2) Is the "keep your rosary off my ovaries" the anti-Catholic bigotry you are talking about? It's not a sign I would hold nor condone, but then again, I've seen plenty of protesters of all types with shameful signs: "Aids is God's curse to you" "Gays go to hell" "Faggots" etc. Just this morning a gay friend of mine stopped at a gas station and some other patron called him "faggot" We are not a county that argues in a civil way most of the time.

    3) I think the small showing of protesters in these photos don't portray all pro-choice people. As someone else pointed out, not all pro-lifers are George Tillman killers, so why would all pro-choicers be cross dressing anti-Catholics? That said, I recognize that people do have a right to express their opinions-no matter how much I disagree with them. Perhaps the protesters in these photos wouldn't be carrying those signs/acting out like that if they had a better idea of Catholicism? Or if they didn't feel attacked by mainstream Christianity?

    -Miss g

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  22. Wow! bigotry at its finest in the comment above mine.

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  23. Miss G -

    You make some excellent points, many of which I and others already agree with (we all know this not representative of most pro-choicers). You mentioned some hateful "conservative" signs... can you give us the benefit of the doubt we are going to pro-choicers? That those nasty, extreme signs are not representative of being pro-life or Catholic?

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  24. Miss Gwen, I am glad you are back and commenting! I appreciate your thoughts. You've raised some interesting points, and I want to address each one. Thanks for patience... it may be a while, but keep checking back.

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  25. Leila,

    I am thrilled to have found your blog thanks to Jennifer Fulwiler. I am from the Phoenix area, as well (Paradise Valley/Scottsdale), and my brother, mother, and father still live there. I am now in Northern California with my family. How wonderful that you are there.

    I was also at the March with my entire family, all 9 children. First of all, I want to say how unbelievably overwhelmed by the love and faith displayed by believers who attended. It was HUGE. And that SF is not that intimidating. ;) I consider myself a conservative, traditional-leaning Catholic and I love to visit SF---I have many happy memories from experiences throughout the years. I can truly say that I *love* San Francisco. How pathetic and sad that it has become a "fearful" place for many where one will be uncomfortable, and not feel God's presence, and goodness.

    My FIL grew up there in the 40's and said it was like the Bells of St. Mary's and idyllic. He loved his neighborhood and parish so much. There are so many gorgeous churches that my husband and I have discovered there, many truly "hidden". I can imagine what it must have been like once.... It truly has been "taken over" by a few.

    But back to this past weekend. Our "section" of the Walk experienced many disgusting and disturbing displays as well---more than Jen (hopefully) saw or photographed, but they were thankfully brief and seemed to hang back from the line a bit. They were not "in our faces", yelling profanities and threats, and coming up physically to frighten. They were mild compared to what I've seen.

    (**Years ago, when we attended Walks in NYC past St. Patrick's Cathedral, it was so truly frightening and diabolical and so *constant*, so LOUD and abrasive, and with just as many counter-protesters as pro-lifers that my now 22 year-old daughter STILL remembers---she was only 3. People yelled out that they hoped my toddler daughter had an abortion some day. I was almost in a state of panic, and scared for our safety, and felt truly assaulted. It was like being in Hell. The police did very little, in my memory, to "protect" us from it or discipline them. You know---free speech.)

    The really sad element for ME, personally, this last Saturday, was the main protest group we encountered (let's face it, these caricatured clown-types are an embarrassment to their cause)----OLDER women, angry, sad older women. I don't know why, it struck me. One always hopes for humbling as we get older, growing "wiser"....here was an illustration of deformed ugliness and hardening---- and something seemed so hopeless about it to me. I felt drawn to look at them all right in the eye as if to "see" something. I always hope to see something in someone's eyes, but there was nothing, just cold....blank, dead.

    I think we need to remember how satanic at its core the pro-abortion rights demonstrations are. And that it is very telling and enlightening, actually, to see it for what it really is....when the devil shows His face and no longer hides behind "attractive" or sympathetic representatives, politicians, or celebrities. One can easily identify themselves with a camp at these times, and say: I don't want ANYTHING to do with that side.

    Thank you for giving me a chance to share, and for all that you do on this blog. I can't wait to read up on all of the back posts. Take care.

    ---Nina

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  26. Sarah-absolutely. I've had many positive experiences with people I know personally who are Catholic and/or pro-life. People who protest with vulgarity and insensitivity do not make good or accurate representatives.

    -miss g

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  27. I want to add that at this March, I did not see ONE HATEFUL SIGN. Every single sign was appropriate for the smallest of my children. The only signs with pictures were images of healthy fetuses in the womb at 8-12 wks, but there were even few of those. They were mainly signs saying, Women Deserve Better than Abortion, and ones along that line. Very peaceful. Very non-hateful. Very un-obnoxious.

    In fact, I have been to many rallies and Walks over the years, and have never seen these supposed hateful signs....with derogatory words or terms, and warning of God's cursing anyone or anything along those lines. Never heard anything like that from anyone, sign-wise or spoken. Only love and kindness and forbearance shown from the people around me.

    Nina

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  28. Ah, this is why conversation on this topic fall apart-comments like the ones above and the one in particular that calls pro-choice people and their efforts "satanic at its core." To me, that is just as offensive, vulgar and insensitive as the sign "keep your rosary off my ovaries."

    -miss g

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  29. Abortion and the abortion-rights movement IS satanic at its core. I'm sorry that it offends you to hear the truth, but it is not insensitive or vulgar to say it.

    Nina

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  30. I agree that abortion is satanic. As is homosexuality and contraception. All of it is a perversion of God's best for us as mankind. And that's what the evil forces do - pervert the good things of God. So, so sad - beyond words - that people get caught up and misled by it all. "It's choice, you know." Yeah, some choice. Do I really want to stand before God one day and explain such a horrid sin? NO! Do I want so many people to stand before God and face such a sin? NO! We are talking about eternal souls here. Someone posted about their 3 year old remembering a horrible protest and how similar to hell it must have been. Very disturbing to think about. Eternity is a very long time. Hell is a very bad place. And babies are truly a wonderful gift from God. You aren't able to love and care for your unplanned baby as you'd like? Ok. Put the baby up for adoption and allow a loving family to raise the baby. Don't kill that child and delude yourself into saying it's "my choice," "not a baby," "just a collection of cells," etc.
    We will one day see the judgment of God on this nation for all this horrible sin going on. I pray everyday for this country and I hope more and more people are as well. Prayer is the only thing that's going to save this country at this point. We are truly headed down a path that leads straight off a cliff.

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  31. Just thought I'd share a story:

    Six years ago a young friend of mine who was baptized (is that the right word? forgive me I am uncertain) into the Catholic Church and attended Catholic school called me to say she was pregnant. With a year and a half of college under her belt, she was scared to find herself pregnant. She'd been casually dating (if you get my drift) a couple of guys and basically felt that their involvement or future involvement in her life was minimal at best.

    I didn't yell at her for being irresponsible or casually dating more than one guy at a time, I didn't tell her to run to the nearest PP and get an abortion and I didn't tell her I was disappointed in her. I listened to her talk, I asked her if she'd thought about adoption, or keeping the baby. And lastly, I asked if she wanted to consider an abortion. I told her that whatever she decided to do, I would support her completely.

    She told me she was leaning towards an abortion and she said it was expensive. So I sent her money and told her if she needed me to visit (I'm in another state) I would do so.

    She ended up buying a fancy pair of shoes with the money instead : ) And 9 months later, we (her family and I) welcomed the birth of a beautiful, gorgeous baby girl into the world.

    It took her a long time to finish college, but she did. And she met a great guy along the way who has been a fantastic father figure to her daughter. She even asked me to be her daughter's godmother, which I couldn't do officially, not being Catholic or baptized. But I remain an "auntie" of sorts and every time we see each other, I have a great time playing tag, dolls, tea time, etc. with this little girl.

    We can't imagine life without this little girl. But when I think back to that phone call her mom made when she was only a few weeks pregnant, I still feel the importance of not only listening to my friend but making sure she understood that no matter what decision she made, I would support her. I'd like to think every woman in a predicament like that receives support but I know many don't. That's the real problem in my opinion.

    ok, enough from me now
    -miss g

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  32. Miss Gwen, I hope and pray you will read Abby Johnson's book, Unplanned. You will understand that we who are pro-life want nothing more than to support women and children. REALLY support women and children. Abby spent 8 years truly caring about women when she was with Planned Parenthood, but when she came over to the other side, she understood what support and love for the woman in crisis really means. It's long-term, not a quick fix with devastating consequences. I beg you to read the book.

    Nina, wow! I am glad to have you here, and your experience in NYC was harrowing! I would have been so horrified.

    Miss G and Nina, I will be back to discuss Miss G's previous comments and then explain why saying that abortion (death) is from the pit of hell is not a dig at the souls we hope to see in Heaven with us. If that makes sense... Gotta run....

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  33. Happy not to spend all eternity in the same place as you, anonymous and Nina.

    -miss g

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  34. Miss G, will you tell that precious girl one day that you sent the money to have her aborted? What do you think she will feel?

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  35. Wow. I am confused. I thought it did look like a Gay Pride Event. Am I to understand you that they are gay. I still don't get if they are gay why they care so much about abortion.

    I also think it is so sad how much they hate the Catholic Church. To me, I would think that people must see that the Catholic Church holds the fullness of the faith and contains its greatness treasure, the Eucharist. Why else would satan be trying so hard to destroy it.

    It is as if abortion is our next holocust and the devil is reigning,there is a spiritual battle going on right under our noses. People do not realize it. They think it is about our rights, body rights, but it is really about our souls.

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  36. I think I would probably tell her the story pretty much as I've written it here. And probably emphasize how happy I am her mom decided to buy nice shoes instead of having an abortion.

    -miss g

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  37. Well said, Bethany. It is about our souls.
    It's not a joke. And for someone to say "I don't want to spend eternity with you" - you either have no idea what you are saying or you are really not at all a loving person. I personally hope to go to heaven one day. I hope to see all of you there one day too. Even those of you who currently think abortion and the like are acceptable.
    --Michelle

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  38. I hope I make it to Heaven some day, by the mercy of God. Please God.

    And I hope and pray that you are there, Miss G, with all of my heart.

    Peace.

    Nina

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  39. You must look from the other perspective. It is just as offensive for a pro-lifer to say to a pro-choicer "Your movement is satanic" as it is for a pro-choicer to say "Your movement is bigoted and backwards, and your religion is delusional". Its not an issue of whether you believe pro-choice is satanic at its core; the question is whether you are helping or hurting your own cause by saying so. In reality, you are never going to incite change through those statements, whether true or false. In fact, you will probably drive people away.

    I think when looking at issues like this, it is important to see the good in the opposite view, and the bad in your own. For example, far from being satanic, most pro-choicers & activists have a deep respect & admiration for women & care for the pregnant mothers, as well as children. We as pro-lifers may not be able to see it immediately, but it is the truth.

    As for the costumes? It seems to me its just a form of expression, a visual contrast to pro-life traditionalism vs. pro-choice radicalism. And let's face it: generally, conservatism isn't the homosexuals friend, so of course they'd help champion liberal causes.

    Finally, the anti-Catholicism. It's ugly & unnecessary. But one who doesn't know the truth doesn't know the offense they are committing. "Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do."

    One thing is for sure: we are not called to condemn the people, but the act. Don't let pro-choicers become your Nineveh. Pray for God to give us a heart of love for these people & see the good in their movement -- maybe then we can dialogue & actually make progress instead of insulting each other.

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  40. Leila you ask just the right questions. Though it is likely erroneous to assume that all the individuals in these pictures are homosexual or transexual or bisexual...the connection is their position and belief about human sexuality and human love MANDATES that abortion be an accepted and easily procured medical procedure because their sexuality is not about procreation or self giving in a committed relationship.

    Human Life is the unplanned accident that happens after the pleasure occassion.

    Sexual freedom and pleasure--without the consequence of natural law--is the highest value in their moral universe.

    Abortion is one form of contraception--among others--that is required to maintain this moral construct.

    Also, many individuals switch back and forth their sexual partnering. They may have or had a sexual relationship with the opposite gender along a same sex relationship. To equalizes these "interactions" one needs to fully divorce procreation from sex.

    Frankly, I see a lot of hurt people when I see these pictures. To me, they look like they are suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

    We have to ask ourselves: what do the men in our society who regret their abortions look like?

    I have a hunch that we might be looking at a few of these faces. But, their trauma is so raw still they are over compensating and goign the full opposite direction in order to deal with their suppressed anger and fear.

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  41. One thing I don't understand is the inability to see religious bigotry in the signs and displays. Miss G, the sign held by the little girl is very, very mild compared to the rest of the lewd, vulgar signs about Jesus and Mary, the pantomimes, the mockery of Christian items and symbols. Do you see the bigotry? If it's not bigotry, what is it? Help me understand. It seems beyond obvious to me that this display is an intentional mockery of my Faith.

    I believe it is one thing to call a sin "evil" in all sincerity and truth (although maybe not judicious in every case), but quite another to mock and taunt.

    Do you see the difference?

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  42. I think I would probably tell her the story pretty much as I've written it here. And probably emphasize how happy I am her mom decided to buy nice shoes instead of having an abortion.

    But Miss G, I asked you how you thought it would make her feel to find out that you had paid to have her aborted?

    It's really not all that cute that she bought shoes instead. It sort of leaves a pit in my stomach to think that those were the equally moral "choices."

    Do you equate the two, morally?

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  43. Little JoAnn, that is a great analysis. Thank you!

    Nina, email me at littlecatholicbubble@gmail.com. I would love to know if I know your family!

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  44. I agree that the signs and gestures of the protesters are mocking and lewd and vulgar. And unnecessary.

    -miss g

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  45. How is it loving to see someone doing something horribly detrimental to their soul and sugar coat the issue or look the other way? I'm thinking that's not true love. There are those out there who call a spade a spade and I respect them for it. (Fr. Corapi and Mother Angelica are two well known examples.) Others hate that. But, I'm a call a spade a spade kind of person. I know I must balance that with love, but I think good Christians have sugar coated and rolled over for too much over the years, and look where this country is now. On the brink. Love is also admonishing the sinner and praying for their conversion.
    I fail to see any good in the pro-choice side. From murdering a helpless baby. Zero. It is not from God. Therefore, if it's not of God, where must it thus be from?
    --Michelle

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  46. Miss G, if you really care about that young lady, the story you told would not be one to share with her.

    It is tragic to have trivialized ones life on par to purchasing a pair of shoes.

    I am so grateful that my conception happened during a time when mothers did not consider abortion as an 'option' or choice. Absolutely tragic that most children today are abortion survivors. Thank God for shoe stores, I suppose.

    A former fetus who is opposed to abortion.

    Michele in Az

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  47. My point about our society viewing babies as a commodity could not have been proven any better...

    Baby = shoes (a really nice pairbof shoes though)

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  48. Michele, no, I'm not trying to trivialize life with purchasing shoes. I'm quite certain more was involved in my friend's decision to have a baby. Are you condemning my friend for the manner in which she made up her mind or the choices that led to her daughter's birth?

    Leila, I thought we were supposed to leave emotion out of the argument? It's really not my business to tell her about the circumstances of her birth-I'll leave that to her mom.

    -miss g

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  49. I apologize if I did not speak the truth in love. I am always learning, struggling, and trying to grow in charity along with everyone else.

    I did not think stating that abortion is satanic is offensive, anymore than stating that any crime against the innocent is offensive. Would someone argue about the veracity of, and/or be offended if I stated that the rape and torture of young women in the world, or the abuse and molestation of children, or the mutilation and dismemberment of a person by a serial killer is satanic?

    Perhaps the problem is that people make associations with the word "satanic" as extremist and hysterical and unrealistic, and are uncomfortable with it because they have relegated satan to a caracture or impotent cartoon character in their minds, instead of admitting and confronting just how very real, commonplace and "brilliant" he is?

    N.

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  50. Sorry about the spelling errors and typos....

    :)

    N.

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  51. Interesting thought about babies as commodities. I suppose in early centuries when more children meant more people to work and provide for the family unit, children were indeed possibly viewed as a commodity. Isn't there a saying about a large family is a wealthy one? meaning the more gifts of life, the richer the experience?

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  52. Miss G,

    You've mentioned that about emotions, before. I think you completely misunderstand.

    We don't determine what is right and wrong based on our emotions, but we certainly consider people's emotions when we decide to tell them (or not tell them) something that could affect their whole life. I think we all try hard not to hurt people. But that has nothing to do with moral truth.

    Do you see the distinction?

    I'm kind of surprised that you said that.

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  53. Nina, I get what you meant, totally. I think you are right that "satanic" is seen differently today than before. And, I think we all don't use the same terminology. So, while I understood you completely, I can see why Miss G or other secular folk would be offended.

    We just don't speak the same language, so on that score, we need to try to speak in a way that each side will be able to hear.

    Thanks for the clarification!
    :)

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  54. Miss G -

    It's funny, but I see the pro-life cause as part of the civil rights movement, and I don't believe that same-sex marriage is a civil right (I've said before that homosexuals and heterosexuals have the exact same rights when it comes to marriage: we can all marry one unencumbered consenting adult of the opposite sex). I believe that unborn children are being denied their civil rights; specifically, the right to life.

    I'm glad your friend (who wasn't a practicing Catholic, sadly, despite her upbringing) chose life, Miss G, and thank you for being there for her when she needed a friend. However, when you think about that little girl, can you honestly say the world would have been just as good of a place without her?

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  55. One would probably also say that hunting down Christians and killing them would be satanic, but isn't that exactly where St. Paul was at one point in his life?

    I believe abortion is evil & satanic. But if I am talking to a pro-choicer, I'm not going to say that. Why? Because it will automatically shut-down the conversation and make them more solidified in their views.

    Also, I, too, think there is zero good from killing an innocent baby. BUT most pro-choicers will say they don't think abortion in & of itself is necessarily GOOD. What they do think is good is giving women power to decide when & how they become parents. Right there we may have a point to start dialogue on something BOTH agree on -- that abortion isn't necessarily a good or positive event. You'll often hear pro-choicers say "no woman WANTS an abortion".

    The point I'm trying to make is that we are called to love vulgar, lewd protesters, abortionists, homosexuals -- all people-- JUST AS MUCH as we are called to love the unborn. That doesn't mean we have sugarcoat or stop championing the cause of the unborn. But our goal should be to speak truth with GENTLENESS & RESPECT.

    I'm glad to be a part of this conversation & am very interested in all your comments!

    ♥ee

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  56. Miss G -

    Thanks (in regards to acknowledging that pro-lifers aren't all hateful :)). It's nice to know we're not all being lumped into the same crowd as extremists (on either side).

    In regards to what you told your friend... I think it was very compassionate of you to not use that phone call to delve into how she got herself in this situation. You sound like a sensitive and good friend. As a pro-lifer, I would try to be supportive too, but in a different way. The main difference in what I would have said in that situation is that I couldn't have put abortion out there as an option (or not on equal footing with the other option). I would have been honest with her that I believe she would regret an abortion for many reasons and offered help in any way she needed it to make the healthiest choice (keep the baby). I would encourage her to look at the ultrasounds and see the life -- the baby -- she already has. Had she chosen abortion, I would not have rejected her as a person but would have been very sad for her and her baby. Does that make sense?

    And like Leila said.. Unplanned by Abby Johnson... I loved reading her book. She shows how most on both sides of the issue really do want to help women.

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  57. Miss G, it seems most important to you that you were able to support your friend (in the story you shared). You said, "I still feel the importance of not only listening to my friend but making sure she understood that no matter what decision she made, I would support her. I'd like to think every woman in a predicament like that receives support but I know many don't."

    It is laudable to want to support a friend. But there is a distinction between supporting the PERSON and supporting their ACTIONS. If my children sin, I still love them and support them ... but I can't tell them the sin was okay. Do you see the difference?

    (By the way, I don't mean to single you out in an uncharitable way... and I appreciate your participation. I hope these comments stand for other people to read and learn about what pro-lifers believe.)

    Do you know the Catholic Church has ministries to assist post-abortive women in their (often lifelong) recovery? We don't want them miserable and broken... we want them reconciled to God, wrapped in His love and mercy and one day face to face with Him in heaven, in eternal joy! The Church wants that for ALL people because we believe that God wants that for ALL people.

    We also believe that God gave us a Church to help us do that. Jesus loved all sinners... but he ALSO asked them to sin no more (as He asks each and every one of us). He never said the sins were allowed, or okay, or equally good "choices" of action.

    And that's the point of being pro-life. Taking an innocent human life is simply wrong. It is sin. We hate SIN, but not the SINNER. I hope that helps the understanding.

    CathyBB

    P.S. to Leila... I'm still praying! =)

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  58. Yes Sarah, I think that many pro-life people have been, are and will be extremely helpful and supportive to women faced with a difficult decision as to what's best for them and their babies. It's sad that discovering a pregnancy isn't always cause for joyous celebration for everyone.

    Cathy-that's just it: I don't see abortion as a sin. I don't. I don't see homosexuality as a sin either. I understand that you and other pro-life people see abortion as a sin. I have a very, very hard time understanding the mantra "love the sinner, hate the sin" because I see it playing out as "hate the sin, condemn the sinner" I know you don't see it that way, but I do. Others here have called the use of birth control satanic. Really? Since when is it the place of someone else to tell me that using birth control in the bedroom is an act of satan? I would never, ever think of or say to a Christian person or a Catholic "You pretend to eat the body and drink the blood of your savior at Mass, you cannibal! You are evil"

    So I really don't know where this leaves the conversation except to say that I do believe the majority of pro-life people have women and childrens best interests at heart. It's too bad many of them don't see the same on the pro-choice side.

    -miss g

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  59. Miss G, I appreciate what you are saying, and I get that you don't see abortion as a sin. But if what happens to those babies in the womb is not sinning against them, then what is? How can it ever be in the best interest of an innocent child to be killed?
    Do you see it as an act of mercy for the child who is "unwanted"?

    Help me understand.

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  60. Maybe it's just that I don't always see a clear distinction between the person and their actions. Maybe you can help me understand. I mean, does that entail "seeing" Hitler as a misguided person who performed bad actions? Or a serial killer as someone with a troubled past who unfortunately gruesomely killed a lot of prostitutes because they were easy targets? If we leave judgment to a higher power, than why is it so easy to point fingers at what people do and call it satanic or sinful?
    And If we separate the actions from the person then all the good things we do aren't part of us too?
    I'm trying to see it, but I just don't.

    Leila-I guess I do see it as somewhat of a mercy for an unwanted baby, and perhaps more so a mercy for a woman who doesn't want to/isn't ready to be a mother (and doesn't want to go through pregnancy and birth to give up baby for adoption). I trust that the needs and intellect of an adult trump that of a developing baby.

    On a completely atheistic note though, if my mother decided to abort me, I wouldn't exist and I wouldn't know what I was missing. The world would probably go on without me just fine. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I'm here. But if the tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound if there are no ears to hear it?

    -miss g

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  61. Miss G, I would love to respond to your thoughts/questions in your first paragraph in a post of its own. You've got some great questions there.

    As for the other two paragraphs, I have questions:

    I trust that the needs and intellect of an adult trump that of a developing baby.

    Why?

    On a completely atheistic note though, if my mother decided to abort me, I wouldn't exist and I wouldn't know what I was missing.

    Why wouldn't this apply to my 11-month-old, too? If I killed him now, he wouldn't know the difference, right?

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  62. I am new to the blog. And when posting originally, after I read the title of your post today Leila, I eagerly set out to share my experiences. I was speaking to a pro-life and Christian (specifically Catholic) audience. I have since explored the blog more and learned of its charism and mission to dialogue and convert hearts. I will not "assume" my audience in the future but try to be all things to all people. It is very important to speak so that we can understand each other---I couldn't agree more.

    Again, it is MY OPINION and based on my personal experiences that the counter-protesters and people shown in these pictures (and the subject of the title of the post) are resembling satan more than God in their behavior, demeanor, and message. I feel only the presence of Evil coming from them. But I understand that those who support sometimes abortion claim that they feel the same coming from pro-life Christians. I have pro-choice family and friends and I really do think we have different perceptions of reality. I have just never personally experienced this vitriol and crude or blasphemous behavior from pro-lifers, and certainly not at the Walk this past weekend which is what I was referring to specifically when commenting.

    nina

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  63. And I'm still wondering.... If we don't say that abortion, for example, is a sin, some people will go throughout their lives not understanding that it is a sin. A pretty big one. Playing all nicey-nice sounds real sweet and loving. But seriously, you have to be careful there. Again I say - it's a battle for souls between good and evil.
    Would no one agree w/me that the evil forces would just love for Christians to maintain a nicey-nice attitude of - well, it's not ok for me but it's ok for you, kind of mentality and the like? I mean, after all, heaven forbid we OFFEND anyone. Seriously? Jesus, I couldn't say anything because I didn't want to OFFEND. Pretty weak argument there folks.
    --Michelle

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  64. "Why wouldn't this apply to my 11-month-old, too? If I killed him now, he wouldn't know the difference, right?"

    I guess because it is hard to see equal footing between an 11 month old (or newborn) and a baby in the early stages of being in utero without all it's organs, skin, teeth and senses developed. I'm not an advocate of late term abortions and I know you'll ask me where the distinction is between a baby at one week and 37 weeks. I can't be exact but I do see a distinction between the "outline" (for lack of a better word) of a baby and the complete gestational baby ready to be born.

    -miss g

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  65. Michelle, I'm not sure Miss G (an atheist) is saying that Christians shouldn't call abortion a sin if we want to. Just that she doesn't agree that it's a sin. Of course, as a Christian, I am not going to sugarcoat sin. Sin is sin, for sure. I wish I had been taught a bit more about sin when I was growing up.

    Nina, I totally get what you are saying. I love what you have to offer and please stick around! It is a different dynamic here than on some of the other blogs... Which is why "Bubble" is seeming ironic these days, since I really do welcome everyone who is respectful.

    Miss G, if you are basing things on arbitrary timelines, organ development and such, shouldn't we err on the side of life, instead of opinion? What if someone's right to be alive (a human right) is being denied by abortion?

    I still don't understand why I can't kill my infant if he doesn't know the difference.

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  66. Most babies are aborted after 8 weeks; I think because the uterine lining is too soft before this point, and it is too dangerous to the woman.

    In one of my miscarriages at 12 weeks (the baby measured around 8 weeks), I delivered----had come out of my body---a perfectly formed baby, little cord still attached and bit of placenta----resembling exactly the posters I saw on the Walk. It was an exact image of what I once held in my hand. It was not an outline. It was a tiny tiny little human being, a son or daughter of mine, who I grieve.

    I have also carried and delivered 9 pregnancies under many varied challenging circumstances, three of which people would advise I abort. I did not value my lost sons or daughters any less, even though their lives ended while still so small. I just known longer, and have met face to face the beautiful ones now on earth. They are more developed. But they are not more human.

    Nina

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  67. I want to clarify that I did not abort any of my unplanned, high-risk, or special-needs babies, but it kind of sounds like that based on my wording above. --Nina

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  68. I understand, Leila. You have been given great gifts in being able to dialogue with such charity and clarity! You have more patience than I. ;) But how important that we all get an opportunity to grow in virtue and humility. I am no where near perfect and need to learn these communication skills. God bless. :) ---N.

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  69. @Nina: that is such a powerful story! I'm glad you shared.

    I'm also new to the blog, so sorry for any misunderstandings! But loving all the opinions! Thanks @Leila for the facilitating such awesome discussion!

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  70. Thanks, guys! I am so glad there are wonderful new "faces" (voices?) here, of all stripes.

    Cupp, when you said that most pro-choicers don't see abortion as a good thing, I think you are probably right, since most of them are non-political, average American citizens. But for the pro-abortion lobby, the movers and shakers of the left, abortion is increasingly painted as a good. For example, there are t-shirts which now proclaim "I had an abortion" and feminists who equate abortion to a sacrament. Also, you have the Democratic Party, which recently dropped the "rare" in "safe, legal and rare" in the Party platform, thanks to pressure from their pro-abortion faction (NOW, NARAL, etc.).

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  71. Since we are talking March for Life, I thought I would link my friend Karen's blog postings about her trip to D.C. as a member of Silent No More. She and several others spoke their testimony in front of the Supreme Court. Very powerful. They also got to meet Abby Johnson (I'm jealous!). Read and see pictures here:

    http://xpensiveperfume.blogspot.com/2011/01/2011-march-for-life-story-media-wont.html

    If you weren't here when I posted about Karen's abortion story, read here:

    http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2010/11/silent-no-more-friends-abortion-story.html

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  72. Miss Gwen, I am still pondering what you said earlier, and I have a question: What is your concept of sin? Or, do you reject the notion of sin outright? Thanks!

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  73. Miss G - I think I see what you are saying in trying to be supportive of the person. But I do think on a practical level most of us, whatever our belief system, faces situations where we must love the person but can't accept their actions/choices. I was pondering last night some of the difficult conversations I've had with friends in the past. Here are two examples:

    Friend comes to me seeking advice/a listening ear. An ex-boyfriend has come back into her life. She has a great job and is meeting and dating great men. This ex and her have a very strong connection but he has a past of being abusive. And he is showing signs even now that he has a tendency to get emotionally abusive. She is SO attracted to him and feels like things have improved over time. She wants to get back together with him... but should she? In this situation, I told her that while I can't make any choice FOR her, as a friend I had to be honest for her benefit... getting back together with Mr. Ex is a bad idea. I asked her not to make that choice. I told her I still see clear signs of abusive tendencies. I told her I see how great her life is going right now, and this will likely derail it. I helped her think it through (after all, she came to me to talk about it).

    In no way was I judging my friend or rejecting her as a person. At the same time, I could not put all her options on equal footing. Had she chosen to go back with Mr. Ex... in no way would I look down on her (I "get" some of her reasons for considering this option), but I still would have believed she made the wrong choice.

    I feel like when it comes to friendships, this scene isn't all that uncommon. We love them unconditionally even if we don't always agree with them (btw she did find the strength to say no to Mr. Ex).

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  74. Sorry, I said two examples but I only gave one... comment was getting too long. :)

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  75. Leila, re: your 1/27/11 7:13pm comment, don't forget (or maybe we should try to forget) Episcopalian Katherine Ragsdale and her "Abortion is a blessing" sermon. Ugh.

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  76. miss g said:
    "I guess because it is hard to see equal footing between an 11 month old (or newborn) and a baby in the early stages of being in utero without all it's organs, skin, teeth and senses developed. I'm not an advocate of late term abortions and I know you'll ask me where the distinction is between a baby at one week and 37 weeks. I can't be exact but I do see a distinction between the "outline" (for lack of a better word) of a baby and the complete gestational baby ready to be"

    Allow me to help flesh out what might help you gain equal footing on this.

    Ask yourself: Does size matter? Does the size of the human being matter in terms of its inherent human dignity? Is it better to kill smaller babies than larger ones based, you know, on size? Better to kill at 11 weeks than at 25 weeks?

    Does location matter? Does it mean abortion is okay at 39 weeks simply b/c baby is still in utero? What about location one day after the birth? baby is only several hrs older, can it now be murdered? Course not. That's a crime.

    Do time and location make that big of difference, other than legal diff, of courdse.

    There's lots more questions... just tossed these out for thought...
    -Nubby

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  77. I don't have much time to debate today but will do my best to answer your question Leila. You're right that I really don't think much about "sin" except in casual situations like "This ice cream is so good it's sinful"

    That said, I understand sin to be a violation of moral code-understood within a particular belief system.

    -miss g

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  78. "I guess I do see it as somewhat of a mercy for an unwanted baby, and perhaps more so a mercy for a woman who doesn't want to/isn't ready to be a mother (and doesn't want to go through pregnancy and birth to give up baby for adoption). I trust that the needs and intellect of an adult trump that of a developing baby."

    Miss G,

    Why do the needs of one human trump the needs of another? Furthermore, are you aware that you are arguing that the perceived needs of the adult trump not only the needs but the very life of the baby? Why would this be? As a parent, would my perceived need for financial stability justify my decision to end the life of my 2-year-old? Why or why not?

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  79. miss g said:
    "I guess I do see it as somewhat of a mercy for an unwanted baby, and perhaps more so a mercy for a woman who doesn't want to/isn't ready to be a mother (and doesn't want to go through pregnancy and birth to give up baby for adoption). I trust that the needs and intellect of an adult trump that of a developing baby."


    Trump the needs of a baby? Should my needs trump those of my born living children? Should I forego their mealtime, their bath, their help with homework simply because those aren't my needs? Do we trump each other out in our family? In society? If so, based on what criteria? Because I'm bigger, better, faster, stronger, make more money I can snuff out my neighbor? Just trying to extrapolate out the logic here.

    What if I'm a very unstable adult? Is my intellect that much more superior than a developing baby's?

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  80. miss g said:
    "I guess I do see it as somewhat of a mercy for an unwanted baby, and perhaps more so a mercy for a woman who doesn't want to/isn't ready to be a mother (and doesn't want to go through pregnancy and birth to give up baby for adoption). I trust that the needs and intellect of an adult trump that of a developing baby."



    Few pts here:
    1. I’m glad my mother didn’t make that decision for me because I disagree.

    2. How can death ever be merciful to a baby? What information have we received from them to assume this?

    3. Who is ever ready to be a parent? I don’t know the statistics but I would stay it’s high for woman who were thankful after the birth they didn’t make that decision.

    4. So the mother is selfish for the pleasure of sex, selfish for not wanting the baby and selfish for the abortion but somehow all that selfishness is merciful for the baby? Interesting.

    5. Comparing the intellect of an adult to a baby is just not even a good argument. So all 18 yr olds have more intellect that 17 yr olds because they are adults? Interesting, by this logic, non-adults (under 18) are not qualified to make that decision thus should not have the ability to make that decision.

    - Nubby

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  81. Nubby, great questions.

    Miss Gwen, I appreciate your comments about sin and I hope I can follow up. Do you discount the notion of "sin" altogether, or do you just have a different word for it? For example, when someone wrongs another person, would you say that is a sin? When someone lies or cheats or steals? Or anything that goes against what is good? What do you call that, or how do you see it.

    Also, do you think there are things such as "virtues"?

    BTW, a sin (the way I understand the definition) is an offense against God, or a breaking of God's law.

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  82. Leila, San Francisco is tiresome indeed. Some of the ugly protesters could be members of the Church of Satan--remember it was established there. The daughter of the founder is keeping the flock a goin'. I saw this same debauchery whenever there was any kind of public event in SF. This crazy behavior could be drug related, too. Who knows,it's probably just indicative of the culture of the city and complete freedom that gay community has there with a huge gay district. That's where a lot of gay people go to finally live openly gay. All I know is that the twisted gay world is still small but way too influential in our daily lives--radio, TV, fashion, education and very powerful in SF (they have lots 'o money and no kids). Expect more of the same to spread across the world as gay rights become more acknowledged.

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  83. I believe at least a few of the pictures can be linked to a group calling themselves the "Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence". Their stated mission is: "The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence® is a leading-edge Order of queer nuns. Since our first appearance in San Francisco on Easter Sunday, 1979, the Sisters have devoted ourselves to community service, ministry and outreach to those on the edges, and to promoting human rights, respect for diversity and spiritual enlightenment. We believe all people have a right to express their unique joy and beauty and we use humor and irreverent wit to expose the forces of bigotry, complacency and guilt that chain the human spirit."

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  84. I've actually been to the West Coast Walk for Life. It was a great event, especially since so many Pro-Lifers came out to support the unborn.

    My view of the connection between "gay pride" people and pro-choice proponents is that they both feel like they're marginalized groups and so have to band together.

    Liberals with liberals I guess. It's sad but true.

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  85. People who live in the bigot house probably shouldn't be throwing the bigot stones.

    Snapshots appear to depict healthy and robust exercise of the freedom of expression, to which I have no objection.

    If I thought Leila's three questions were genuine and reasonable I would attempt to answer them.

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  86. Anonymous (give a name, please)... Thank you for that response.

    I am guessing that you are okay with this type of bigoted expression against Catholics. Are you also okay with this type of mockery toward other religions, such as Judaism or Islam?

    So in your mind, these folks get to express their opinions (and I agree; I have no desire to have them censored) but are not bigots, but Catholics who express their beliefs are bigots. Right? What is your definition of a bigot? Is there such a thing as a liberal bigot, in your mind, our are liberals "tolerant"?

    I think you can't answer the questions because you don't have answers. Otherwise, you would. Seems like a cop-out to me.

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  87. I've been enjoying the depth and civility of (most of) this dialogue.

    Re: abortion as mercy, consider these two scenarios:

    (1) A single, pregnant woman is living in poverty. A pro-choicer says to her, "If your child lives, he will live in poverty and grow up without a father. That will be a hard life. Therefore, you should abort him."

    (2) A man grows up in poverty and without a father. It is a hard life. A pro-choicer says to him, "It would have been better if you had been aborted."

    Please don't misunderstand -- I don't think I know anybody, pro-choice or otherwise, who would be so presumptuous as the person is in (2). But it seems to me that (1) is every bit as presumptuous as (2).

    The only difference is that in (2), the poor man being spoken to in such a way would be highly indignant. In (1), the child being spoken about can't speak for him or herself.

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  88. J. Prever-I have yet to know or meet a pro-choice person who talks to a pregnant woman and says, "you know, you really should have an abortion." That would be pushing one option on someone else.

    How would you feel (or what would you say) if I characterized all pro-life advocates as saying "you know, you knowingly had sex and you know the consequences of that action and you know you are poor so you've really made bad choices and you have to have this baby, because abortion is a sin and you will burn in the fires of hell for eternity if you have an abortion."

    I'm done with commenting on this particular post. I'm afraid of the vitriol I might spill in response to Cordelia's inflammatory statements about "twisted gay world." If you're headed to heaven Cordelia, I will definitely take the opposite direction. Thank you for making it so abundantly clear why I will never, ever, ever become part of your religion, your church or your politics.

    -miss g

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  89. miss g-
    A person should never place his/her opinion about a particular religion, school of thought, doctrinal teachings, etc on any one person.

    Look passed that one person who gave you a wrong impression. The best of us are sinners. Haven't you ever had a bad day? An emotional moment?

    I don't know what Cordelia said to you, and it doesn't matter. What matters is that you shouldn't allow one person's opinion or behavior disway you.

    If you're honestly seeking Truth, and if you're open to truly meaningful discussion based solely on logic, then forego the emotion and just discuss pointedly the questions that were legitamately posed to you.

    -Nubby

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  90. Plz excuse the typos above -- was commenting in a hurry

    -Nubby

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  91. Miss G, the pressure to abort is all around women in crisis. Heck, I know a bunch of friends who have had their OBs pressure them to abort if there was the slightest hint of a problem in a pregnancy. So, while some do say "You must abort" (including one OB who told my friend to abort because she -- the mom-- has lupus; the healthy girl is now my godchild), others don't say it in the same way, but they do imply or even state: "You should abort." Do you really think there is not pressure on scared, desperate women to abort?

    And I must agree with Nubby: You can't let one person's words sway you away from a discussion. Not if you are seeking truth. My goodness, we all say and take things the wrong way. I will tell you that a couple of words would not be all it takes for me to swear off your philosophy, but the video I linked to on my latest post would. I wish you would watch it, just four minutes, and tell me if you think what you see is right and good. It is painful, yes, but please, we must face the truth of what we allow and condone. Please.

    Also, my next post is answering your question from earlier, about separating the person from the acts. Thanks!

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  92. Miss G,
    To add to Leila's point about the pressure to abort, I just need to mention that this pressure can be tremendous without ever hearing the words, "You should abort" or "you should consider your options." For example, a young woman in college is pounded with the message that a child will stop her from achieving her goals. A woman who is unmarried is repeatedly accosted with the reminder that single parenting is hard. A financially unstable woman is pushed into believing that a child will push her into destitute poverty and that the best thing for that child is not to be born. A woman with a young child is pressured into believing that she will not be able to attend to another baby properly. The list goes on. The most effective pressures to abort are the ones that feed upon our desperation. They are the pressures that avoid overtly mentioning abortion while simultaneously presenting it as the most desirable option.

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  93. Miss G,

    Thanks for pointing out the unfairness in my post. You're right, I wouldn't like it if someone did that.

    I notice that you didn't answer the question, though.

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  94. Leila @ January 29, 2011 2:49 PM says

    "...I have no desire to have them censored..."

    The attentive reader notes that Leila did, by her own admission and in fact, censor the photographs.

    I would prefer to report the bare facts and allow everyone to draw his own conclusions, but I'll quote Leila again for lagniappe (this one's found on the front page of the blog)

    "I love clarity. I love logic. I love Truth."

    Whoever said that irony is dead was mistaken, and anyone capable of perpetrating this sort of disconnect lacks the requisite equipment for rational discourse.

    Of course the sole purpose of this blog is to gratify Leila's colossal vanity so it doesn't really matter what preposterous twaddle she spews forth.

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  95. Dear anonymous, you seem to be a very bitter person. I am sorry about that.

    When I said I do not desire to have them censored, that means I do not desire the government to censor their speech or right to assemble/protest. I certainly do not have to have obscene words displayed on my blog. That is my right. However, I gave them plenty of exposure that others, including the media, would not. So they need not feel cheated.

    Understand the distinction?

    Blessings to you!

    (And please give yourself a name if you are going to comment here. Than you.)

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  96. Anonymous, if you are Sam/Paul, I would appreciate it if you kept your word and stopped commenting. You said you would stop the harassment, and that I could allow anonymous commenters without the worry that you would keep coming in with discourteous comments like this. You also said you would stop reading my blog.

    Please be a man of your word.

    I wish you nothing but peace.

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  97. Dear Anon,
    Just for a moment, let's take your premise- that Leila's blog is simply a public outlet for her inflated ego. It seems silly to point this out, but for every hostile anti-Christian anonymous comment, Leila's hit count probably doubles, and a dozen comments get added as well.

    So for someone who hates Leila so much, you sure do a great job of generating traffic to her site!

    A thank you from all of us who hope the truth Leila writes can reach a broader audience.

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  98. [Of course the sole purpose of this blog is to gratify Leila's colossal vanity so it doesn't really matter what preposterous twaddle she spews forth.]

    LOL, I thought that was the purpose of all blogs. Ariana Huffington and P.Z. Meyers are practically worshipped as gods on their respective blogs!

    You seem awfully worked up over something that "doesn't matter," Anon. Seems it matters to you... a lot. :)

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  99. Miss g thought that I was equating the twisted gay culture in SF with same sex attraction. I was not.

    I had homosexual acquaintances in SF. I was surrounded by homosexuals at work and in school. They weren't the ones acting like mythological gods or subhuman creatures on stages at Halloween. (If you've ever been in SF on Halloween and you saw what I've seen you would feel like you were in hell.)

    So, that's the kind of twistedness I was refering to--nudity, public displays of bedroom acts, pagan like orgies on stage in front of an audience. This is the kind of sickness that thinks of ideas such as holes in the walls in bars for anonymous intercourse (Unfortunately, I can verify this--I'm not gay but there is in fact a wierd mixing of straights and gays at gay bars in SF that goes on--perhaps fueled by curiosity to see what actually this scene is like.)

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  100. Cordelia, I am glad you clarified, and I almost clarified that myself, since I knew what you meant. I hope that Miss G is still reading this and can acknowledge that there is twistedness in what you describe. After all, she did say that she does not agree with the lewdness and mockery of the protestors in the photos above.

    Miss Gwen?

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  101. I didn't realize this conversation was still going on. I can understand the offensiveness of (some) of the signs above, the gestures and "plays" performed in protest.

    But in the context of Halloween and a giant public street party, I see nothing wrong with outlandish, bizarre, artistic costumes. Nor do I see an obvious connection between cross dressing/outlandish costuming/paganism and holes in bar restrooms. I've been to some gay bars (surprise surprise) and I've had great times and never had a problem with holes in the restroom door/walls. Regarding restrooms in gay bars, the "problem" has been too many people waiting to use the women's restroom because many Queens prefer not to use the men's room and don't identify as men anyways! LOL

    -miss g

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  102. Miss G, do you approve of these public displays? I think we know that Cordelia wasn't simply talking about fun, outlandish Halloween costumes:

    "nudity, public displays of bedroom acts, pagan like orgies on stage in front of an audience."

    I think you pretty much know exactly what we are talking about. So, where do you stand on all that?

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  103. Miss Gwen, if you don't think there is pressure to abort, please read:

    http://www.theunchoice.com/coerced.htm

    Give it a fair hearing?

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  104. I know the young lady who wrote this. I have known her since she was a little girl. She is a year older than my oldest daughter. She went on the March For Life West Coast, and she gives her experience of the offensive protesters, and pictures of them as well. So very sad. As she says, these people must be very, very unhappy and lost.

    http://catholicphoenix.com/2011/02/03/the-walk-for-life-an-opportunity-for-martyrdom/

    Lord, save the lost.

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  105. There are lots of details, lots of years I won't go into, but our God is an Awesome God, a Merciful God! Though His means of bringing me back to Him have not been pleasant, they are all welcomed. I am married now, to a devout Catholic man, and couldn't be happier.
    I often wonder if the reason my life went so far off track from what I always dreamed it to be, is because now I have a deeper understanding of things I might not have before.
    I think there was always a gnawing reality in the back of my soul that the life I was living was not capable of giving me what I truly desired. To live for my God, to know Him, Love Him, and serve Him in this world, so I could be with Him forever in the next.
    I have been to deaths door, I know well what it feels like to realize that at any moment I will meet Him, my Lord, my God, and what would I say? How could I defend my life?
    I left that lifestyle because the truth was impossible to ignore. There were meetings to talk about how to get a character or two onto soap opera's, how to get our lifestyle more acceptable. I was in agreement, it was hard being in the closet. But it wasn't the closet that bothered me. It was truth. God did not create me to get a sperm donor, or to have to choose between being in His Grace, and living an active lifestyle contrary to His design. Truth is that babies are created in the womb of their mom's as creations of God! If everything I wanted was out of my reach in this lifestyle, there was a reason, and the reason was, it wasn't approved by God.
    Today when I speak with woman in relationships, who want to live their Catholic faith, I remind them the Church doesn't require they not love each other, but that we are ALL, called to be celebate outside of a Sacramental Marriage. I share that once I came back home to Him, I found myself.

    I pray for the anger felt by so many, and I do believe that the father of lies is actively fueling the anger. Satan is in his glory with what is happening now.

    Mrs. J

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  106. Sighs, my entire first part didn't post, and is lost. How frustrating.... suffice it to say simply that it was explaining how I experienced the lesbian lifestyle, and my reversion back home to the CC.
    How disappointing, oh well.
    Mrs. J

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  107. Mrs. J,

    Thank you!! You have a lot to offer others who are in the struggle right now. I hope you will consider going to Demrie's new blog, as she is just beginning her journey out of the lesbian lifestyle and into the Church:

    http://ddhartjourney.blogspot.com/

    You and she give me such hope! Blessings!

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  108. Hi Leila, Thank you, I have read Demri's blog. I would very much like to communicate with her. She is in my prayers!

    God bless and Mary keep all of your readers.

    Mrs.J

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  109. Interesting conversation, ladies. It will also be interesting to watch and see what happens in Egypt over the next couple of years. If the Muslim Brotherhood takes over, will Sharia Law be set in place? And since most estimates are that we too, in the US will be an outnumbered Muslim country in 20 years, could we be facing a similar outcome? Muslims families are having on average 8 children to our 1. We are too busy with materialism to care...so we abort our unwanted inconvenience of a child and rely on our constitution to save us.

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  110. 1&3) I don't see why, just because they've painted their faces and dressed up for a big rally, that makes them homosexual. On Halloween we don't question when strait men and women dress up so at a rally where they're trying to grab peoples attention, why not dress up then too? Like you said, it provide shock value and makes people stop and take a look.

    2) You feeling "sad" for these people and feeling the need to "pray for their souls" could be considered a form of bigotry. You obviously can't handle anyone who openly doesn't believe in God or any form of organized religion. It's disguised as just being "what you believe in" and America's Freedom of Religion (or lack thereof, don't forget) protects you from anyone putting you down for it, but the fact that you believe in God and you feel sorry for those that don't, is your passive-aggressive way of putting them down for NOT believing in God.

    I personally don't believe the two options should be only "Pro-Choice" or "Pro-Life" because I don't think its an either/or situation. Of course I'm pro there being life but I'm also pro it not being a government issue because whether its legal or not, its still the mothers choice whether she wants to keep the baby or not. Only, if it's illegal, she might go to some lengths to get an illegal abortion which could put both her's and the baby's life at risk. The reason its a religious issue is because you believe in souls and others do not. You believe the soul develops at the moment of conception; others do not. During the timeslot of which you can even get an abortion, the "baby" is nothing more than about 150 cells (to break it down for you, there are 15,000 cells in a flies brain). This is not a baby. It is a fractionally sized cluster of cells that need not turn into another poor child left abandoned, undernourished or thrown into the system, unloved and uncared for. I for one would rather not bring a child into this world if it can't be supported and I don't think it should be anyone else's business except the woman's who's decision it is to make.

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  111. ^ and to add to what I just wrote, I would just like to say thank you to Miss G because I agree with EVERYTHING you said.

    --Anonymous Free Thinker

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  112. I personally don't appreciate the fact that the Separation of Church and State is being ignored throughout this whole movement. The fact of the matter is, the religious believe the soul is created at the time of contraception and that its God's will that the baby be born, ect... but what about the Atheists? What reasons can you give them to be pro-life? They will not listen to the idea that it's "God's Word" because they do not believe in God so what reason do they have to not terminate an unplanned pregnancy? As mentioned above, at the time your allowed to have an abortion, there is no baby; there is not even a fetus yet but just a few cells. If one does not believe in a soul, why should one not be okay with ridding the body of a small collection of growing cells not so different from, say, a cancerous body of cells? The point is, if we're going to get our government involved, we need to keep religion out of it, no matter how much it contributes to your beliefs in your own lives, because such beliefs do not apply to everyone and we need to respect that just as much as we're expected to respect religious beliefs under our constitution.

    E

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  113. E and freethinker, that is interesting, because in my understanding, atheists do not believe that born babies have souls either, or adults. So, should those soulless folks be allowed to be killed too, if they are inconvenient and unwanted? What makes "birth" the line in the sand for you? Or any other point of development in the womb? How are those lines anything but arbitrary?

    Also, what do you make of the fact that there are pro-life atheists and pro-life secularists? Perhaps protection of unborn humans is a human rights issue, not a religious one. :)

    After all, you don't see "Atheists for the Trinity" (which would be a religious issue).

    Thoughts?

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  114. PS: These may answer a few more of your points:

    http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2010/07/responding-to-christa.html

    http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/06/sliding-scale-of-personhood-license-to.html

    By the way, leftist "ethicist" Peter Singer of Princeton is consistent. He knows there's no logical reason to say that an unborn child is worthy of death, but that a born child isn't. His philosophy allows for the killing of a child for months after her birth, as well. What do you think of that philosophy?

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  115. 2) You feeling "sad" for these people and feeling the need to "pray for their souls" could be considered a form of bigotry. You obviously can't handle anyone who openly doesn't believe in God or any form of organized religion. It's disguised as just being "what you believe in" and America's Freedom of Religion (or lack thereof, don't forget) protects you from anyone putting you down for it, but the fact that you believe in God and you feel sorry for those that don't, is your passive-aggressive way of putting them down for NOT believing in God.

    Freethinker, I'm going to guess that you are either a high school or college student. Am I correct?

    Having religious convictions and praying for people's souls is now considered "bigotry"? Interesting. And if I "can't handle" people believing differently than myself, why do I have this blog open to anonymous comments? Are you okay with people thinking differently than you? If so, why do you call me a bigot?

    The idea that the number of cells or level of complexity make us human, or more important than another organism is interesting to me. If a toddler is less complex than a twenty-year-old, is the toddler less human than the twenty-year-old? If a giant gorilla is more complex than a newborn baby, should the newborn baby be less protected under the law than the gorilla?

    Also, what do you have against adoption?

    So many questions for you, but this is a start.

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