Monday, August 29, 2011

Bubble Comments that deserve a second look...

So you all know how I love my little contrived Bubble features, right? Well, I proudly present a new one this day!

I've decided that there are some comments in the Bubble that are worth repeating, so they are getting their own forum. For those readers who follow the combox drama closely, you'll get to appreciate them all over again, but for those who don't have time to follow all the comments (most of you!), it will be your first peak at these thought-provoking gems. I've dug out some memorable ones from the past week, in no particular order:

From Jan, on the post "Catholics: Your misguided compassion will come back to bite you in the rear":

That is exactly my point, Zach, we all make judgments and believe some things are right, or wrong. The thing is, I, and many orthodox Catholics DO judge actions as right or wrong, we do discriminate as to how we live our lives, etcetera...the difference is that we do NOT feel the need to pretend that we are TOLERANT and open minded to all viewpoints. The liberal left, however, make just as many judgments...(i.e. they have too many children, they don't think for themselves, they just blindly follow formal religion, they shouldn't infringe on a woman's right to choose, they refuse to change, they are too judgmental, they are homophobic...on and on). Yet they somehow pretend or deceive themselves that they are so much better because they are tolerant. It is a lie. It is hypocritical. 


From Barbara, on the same post:

I do feel that same sex parents are "playing house", especially when they use extraordinary means to create a child of a surrogate or a sperm donor. They are consciously creating a human being and then alienating that human being from half of his genetic history, half of his background and half of his identity. On top of that they are creating a situation by which that child will either lack a parental figure of the same gender or one of the opposite gender, neither of which is favorable for developing interpersonal skills. 

A gay couple "doctoring" up a child is a kind of "playing house". They are "constructing" a heterosexual family without the opposite sex partner. It's an imitation of heterosexuality and is also parasitic on it. Homosexuals who want children have to get some of the "other guys stuff" in order to make these people. 

The thing is, we have no idea how this is going to affect the children who are being born in these scenarios. How is not having a mother, with a mother's touch and a mother's sensibility going to affect these children? How is not having a father going to affect them? We used to consider it a tragedy when a baby had no Mama to hold him, to nurse him, to sing to him, but now we're purposefully creating it.

And why? because of some messed up idea of compassion which amounts to little more than squishy emotionalism. Some "Care Bears" philosophy in which "It's aww about wuuv,". Um, no, it's making Social Science experiments out of human lives, and we have no idea what is going to happen when these kids grow up.*


From Sarah, on the same post:

Not only are Catholic adoption agencies no longer able to serve effectively, but... these socially sanctioned "alternative" arrangements affect children (adopted and created through ART) for a lifetime. It is appalling to me that with so. many. studies. showing that the healthiest situation for a child is with his/her mother and father, married to each other, stable (and traditional adoption is unique but equivalent to this arrangement), that our culture has so carelessly opened wide the doors to all sorts of odd arrangements, going even as far to have three parents listed on birth certificates.

Many respond to the idea that non-traditional homes are a hardship for the kids with, "Oh are [you] saying a single mom can't do a good job???" No, that is not what I am saying or what others are saying. Single moms CAN do a good job. But in the past, single parenthood was seen as a hardship, as something that was not ideal, and as a situation that benefits from outreach and ministry for support. Back in the 80's, that began to change some with folks trying to convince kids like me that my "different" family (divorced parents) was "just fine", no big deal. 

Oh the damage that did! My generation is filled with folks my age who are struggling to make sense of love, marriage, and family thanks to their "great" arrangements growing up. My little mind NEEDED to hear, "Hey, what you're experiencing IS sad, and needs to be mourned, and will affect you." Not, "Oh, your father living across town is just another beautiful expression of diversity." Ugh. How does a child even begin to properly mourn something everyone is telling them is "great"??? And these poor kids with "three" parents will be even more confused (isn't it great that your daddy was a sperm donor??*). No, sorry, for the child, it's not great. The parents may enjoy their "freedom" to live however they want, but it's not great, it's not fair, it's not a "free choice" for the kids. Can you tell I get worked up about this? Lol. It doesn't help that even secular publications will occasionally run these stories about kids brought into alternative situations having a hard time with it... yet no one connects the dots. 

And there you have it! I hope you enjoyed these readers' pearls of wisdom. Don't worry if your comment wasn't showcased this time around; keep on commenting and you may see it here next time!

*Slate had an interesting article on the feelings of the children born from sperm donors, here.



  1. I'm so glad you posted the comment about "playing house" from Barbara -- it really made me think. I had never seen it from that perspective before. When looking at it that way, it's kind of similar to the way feminists began to "play man" through means of birth control instead of embracing what they were already by nature.

    Maybe not the best comparison, but hopefully you see what I mean!

  2. Eliz, I totally get what you are saying, and you have a great point!

  3. Oh wow... I've never won a Bubble Award but this is just as exciting! Thanks for re-posting. Jan's comment "Yet they somehow pretend or deceive themselves that they are so much better because they are tolerant. It is a lie" - wow, yes, this sums up so much of what's unfolded in the blogosphere this week.

  4. Speaking of the Bubble Awards, it has been quite awhile since you've done one of your quizzes. Do you think you could have one soon? And I agree with the playing house analogy. Humans are trying to play God and create babies based on what they want. Haven't people noticed that every time they try to play God something bad happens? Let's go back to allowing God play His role and bless us with children in His timing.

  5. I didn't read Sarah's comment before, but I really see where she is coming from. I am also a child of divorce, and although I was fortunate enough that both of my parents stayed in the same city and I have a relationship with both, that single event impacted my life in tremendous ways. As an adolescent I needed my father in the home, not as someone I visited on the weekend. I needed his guidance, his direction, his strength, his discipline, his clarity, those very masculine qualities which balance the feminine ones from my mother.

    I've become very passionate about the subject of family line and its connection to personal identity in the last few years as more and more members of my family have passed on. I have no more grandparents and my parents are entering their sixties. I came to the realization that I am one of the lucky ones statistically. I know who my parents are. If I develop a sudden illness I can go back into my genetic history to potentially identify it and treat it. I can see some of my inherited traits in older family members and I can see things in my family line that need changing. My family is pretty dysfunctional at times, but I know them and I know who I am in relation to where I come from.

    This is something we're losing with every generation as the divorce rate rises, as reliance on reproductive technology increases, as families become atomized due to economic instability forcing them to live farther and farther away from each other. It's not just homosexual "families", it's a whole mess of shifts in society that progressively unmooring humanity generation by generation. Every child has a right to know who he is. A person's lineage is no small thing, and can't be replaced by fuzzy feelings and good intentions.

    Barbara (Blogger is only letting me post under my web address)

  6. Great comments. Thank you for reposting.

    While this is not necessarily central to the messages contained in the comments, I am left with questions regarding homosexual adoption... Is there any point at which a child is served by homosexual adoption? Let's say it is an older child coming from a seriously troubled background, leaving the child with a wide range of issues (emotionally and otherwise).

    What is the likelihood of this child ever being adopted by a heterosexual family? What if the child, adopted by the homosexual couple, now has an opportunity to attend a Catholic school?

  7. All of these gave me goosebumps at some point (including Sarah's, which I remember reading). It's amazing that this argument remains so one-sided in the media, as if there is no point in arguing at all, as if this "compassion" outweighs the rights of children to normalcy, to two parents, to a family unit that can expose them to the love of each sex- a mother and a father in the ideal case... and those poor infertile couples waiting years to adopt while others create these situations bereft of normalcy for children they experiment on... I am so weary of the truth being buried under media-driven philosophies.

  8. nfpfertilityhelp, my understanding is that the Church would never condone placement in a homosexual couple's home. I don't think it would condone placement in a polygamist's home, either. Or several other examples of an openly immoral situation. However, I am guessing that a very hard to place older child (one with only a small chance of being adopted by a married couple) could be adopted to a single parent who has same sex attraction.

    But to put a child in a home where there are two gay people acting like a married couple is not ever going to be a situation that the Church would put a child.

  9. Thank you, Leila. Putting it in that context does bring some clarity.

  10. Even after all this time reading you blog, I had no idea tolerance is not a virtue. Thank you for the clarification.


  11. Miss G, I'm guessing you are referring to this quote by the wonderful (Native American) Archbishop of Philadelphia (formerly Denver):

    "We need to remember that tolerance is not a Christian virtue. Charity, justice, mercy, prudence, honesty -- these are Christian virtues. And obviously, in a diverse community, tolerance is an important working principle. But it's never an end itself. In fact, tolerating grave evil within a society is itself a form of serious evil." - Archbishop Chaput

    Tolerance, while being an important working principle, has never been one of the traditional virtues. Charity (agape love) is much higher.

    Would you agree that toleration of grave evil is in itself a form of evil?

  12. Leila
    Thanks for clarifying that tolerance of sin is not virtuous. Thanks for clarifying that we are to love the sinner, hate the sin. Thanks for sharing the truth of the Church's life giving teachings. You're a very good teacher!

  13. I love this, by the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen:

    Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

    It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

    The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

    It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

    The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
    but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

    Real love involves real hatred:
    whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
    has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

    Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of "live and let live";
    it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.

    Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
    which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.

  14. Yes Leila, I find Chaput's comment very interesting since, like I said before, I did not realize that tolerance is not a virtue.

    I would generally agree that tolerance of evil is unacceptable but that opens a can of worms because many of the things you consider immoral/evil, I don't.

    Anyways, thanks again for the clarification

  15. P.S. I'm off to Mass tomorrow at a local church to see what it's all about. Let's hope I don't burn down the altar with my sinful presence.

  16. JoAnna, wow! I love Sheen. Isn't it amazing that Archbishop Sheen had a prime time show on NBC and all of America (all creeds, not just Catholic!) loved him and watched him weekly??

    My how things have changed.

  17. Miss G, I would have long ago burned down the altar myself if a "sinful presence" did that, ha ha.

    I am interested to see what you think! Are you going with a friend?

  18. I think that is awesome, Gwen. I know all of heaven is joyfully waiting for you to celebrate in the Mass. Will be interested in hearing your thoughts after you attend.

    Will offer prayers thru Mary today that you have a joyful and grace filled experience in Christ's actual presence.

  19. No, going on my own. I've always been curious about attending a service in this beautiful and historical church in town:

  20. I'm sure the priest will be happy to answer any questions you may have after celebrating the mass.

    At communion time, just be sure to refrain from receiving, as you may already know. Only Catholics in a state of grace should receive.

  21. Nubby, good reminder, as even Catholics I know don't receive for many reasons. I used to receive in a state of mortal sin as a Catholic, Lord have mercy! But non-Catholics (grace-filled or not) cannot receive, as the reception of Our Lord is a sign of our unity and belief in the Church. But Miss Gwen, you can cross your hands over your chest and the priest will give you a blessing (or, in our parish they say "receive Jesus into your heart", as a spiritual communion), if you do decide to go up at Communion time.

    St. Philip Neri is a joyful, amazing saint! And that church looks wonderful. I love historic churches and missions! Have a wonderful experience, and I wish I could go with you, ha ha! We would have some coffee after. :)

  22. Thanks for the tips. I do remember asking for a blessing instead of receiving communion from my days at Episcopal middle school. I will do some reading up on Saint Phillip Neri.


  23. Miss G.,
    I think it's really great that you are going to Mass to see what it's all about. Kudos to you!

    I have taken some Protestant friends of mine and it can be very confusing and intimidating when everyone knows when to sit, stand, and kneel and you don't. The Mass is done in two parts, the Liturgy of the Word (scripture) and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. We read an Old Testament reading which usually foreshadows or connects to the New Testament reading for that day, then we read or sing a psalm (again, Old Testament) and then we stand for the gospel because when Jesus speaks we stand to honor Him. After the gospel the Priest says a homily about the scripture readings and then the Liturgy of the Eucharist begins. The Mass is a remembrance of the Last Supper, and the word remembrance Jesus used originally meant "to make present" we are making present the one true sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This has been done since the beginning of the Church, after His death. At the moment when the Priest holds up the Chalice and the bread, they are changed in an instant by God. And when we receive them our venial sins (not mortal) are washed away, we take in Christ's body, blood, soul, and divinity, and we receive special graces. I find myself yearning to receive the Eucharist by the time Saturday rolls around.

    Anyway, I grew up Catholic and never really paid attention to why we did what we did, but the Mass is so much more exciting when you actually know what is going on up there and all around you. Usually during Mass when we are reciting the Creed (We believe in one God, the Father Almighty...) or saying the Our Father the Holy Spirit can be felt in such a way that I literally feel His graces being poured out upon the congregation.

  24. Beautiful church, Gwen! I echo Nubby's sentiments.

  25. I'll be thinking of you tomorrow Gwen, I hope your curiosity is satisfied. :-)

    Since we're on the subject, may I suggest perhaps in the future, if you should continue to be curious of the Catholic Church, going to Catholicism classes? The classes are for those who want to become Catholic, but it's open to all, for any reason. Even if you have no intention of turning Catholic, some of your questions about the Catholic Faith may be answered. You can pick and choose what class you want to go to (usually they have an itinerary of what they will discuss)and there is no obligation to continue if you don't want to. There is also usually a question and answer time for after class. And it's free.
    Every Catholic church has this class, you should find it in the bulletin or call the parish office for more information.

    Just something to consider for the future, if you feel open to it.

  26. If someone makes a mind-blowing comment in one of your comment highlight posts, will it get highlighted? Heheh

    Miss G - hope you enjoy your experience at Mass! I was raised Catholic, but I know that when I first started to really understand what was happening during the Mass, my experience there completely changed.

    Leila, I think your blog is like a major RCIA class sometimes! Makes it a lot easier to learn from my couch as opposed to going to a catechism class at church :)

  27. Miss G - I hope you enjoy Mass! I am pretty sure a few churches would have already burned down with my sinful presence in it too. Actually, when I was 15 (and my dad had just converted to Catholicism and was driving me CRAZY with his religious zeal), a priest approached me after Mass to let me know that if "looks could kill," mine would have had him on the floor. I guess I didn't look happy to be there??? :) But the church still stands today, and I am actually friends with this priest now. So yeah, don't worry about being "perfect". No one else in the pews is perfect, that's for sure!

  28. And, actually, the Church exists for our sinful presence. When you enter the church doors and take your place for Mass, you're in the good company of sinful humans who are there knowing full well that they bring their sinful presence to that altar for forgiveness, mercy, and healing.

    I hope the interior if that church has a larger than life crucifix hanging up. I hope when you set eyes on that image, that it will be a powerful moment for you. Christ will be there, arms wide open, saying through the Spirit, "Gwen, how happy I am to see you here with me and with everyone else." And through the Mass, any sin that is venial is wiped away in you and in all who attend with you.

  29. One more point for Gwen: If you are going to a daily (as opposed to Sunday) mass, there might not be a recitation of the Creed, nor a homily necessarily. But the main parts are still there. And most of the folks in attendance at the daily mass are humble souls.

  30. It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
    -- Jesus Christ

    A church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.
    -- Abigail Van Buren

  31. A church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.
    -- also attributed to L.L.Nash (late 1800's) ... can't find anything further back

  32. Miss Gwen- I'm so excited that you are attending a Mass. I remember attending Masses with my aunt as a child and being rather awestruck by them.

    Of course, I grew up in a more atheist-leaning agnostic household. In fact the only reason I ended up at a Catholic high school for soph/jun/sen years was because it was located down the street from my house when I applied. After I accepted and decided to go there, we moved out to the country and was 25 min away. I ended up at a Catholic college, but that's only because the main building of the campus had a similar vibe to my high school which I thought would make the transition easier.

    On the other hand, my entire life is a long host of examples of how the Holy Spirit helps guide us toward a path of holiness, even when we ignore Him.

    And trust me, I'm still amazed about how the entire chapel at my college should've burst into flames when I walked down the aisle at my wedding, knowing full well who I was at the time. Are you kidding me? There are days when I'm almost afraid the Holy Water at the entrances is going to start boiling if I put my hand in. (Ridiculous, I know, but still...)


  33. My mom's had me with the help of a sperm donor. I'm college educated, 22 years old, about to open my own business. I'm a woman seeing a great man, hoping to be engaged within the next 2 years. I'm happy, healthy, loved and had an amazing up bringing. I wish there were LESS judgmental people out there. You are all so close minded and HURTFUL.

  34. H, so you don't agree, then, with the views of those in the Salon article? You have never wondered who your father was, and never missed out on having a father? If not, you are very rare indeed.


  35. HoE,

    Do you think this situation (not uncommon) with sperm donor kids is a good thing?

    I think it's horrific, and I think even people who used to support sperm donation think so, too.


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