A dark day in our nation's history is upon us, as we commemorate the 41st year of Roe vs. Wade, the surreal Supreme Court decision that ignored the whole of modern biological science and reached back to the ancients in order to clumsily, fraudulently declare that we, uh, don't really know when human life begins.
Riiiiight. We just can't figure that one out.
This from the "enlightened" ones.
Just like that, with the stroke of a pen, the shelter of a mother's womb became the most dangerous place to reside in America. The members of our human family who are the most defenseless, the most voiceless, the most innocent, the most in need of our protection, became disposable and thus subsequently disposed of to the tune of some 55 million. Yawn! It's a number, and we are numb.
The victims behind the statistics are easily ignored when we aren't actually tripping over their dead bodies in the street, and when Gosnell-type horrors are quickly glossed over and forgotten.
But individual stories still have the power to change everything, and I read one recently that gets to the heart of it all.
As so many have before her, Grazie Pozo Christie, M.D., moved from her perch in the pro-"choice" camp to the middle of the March for Life, tramping through the snow and holding the very signs she used to mock:
[On January 22], the yearly March for Life will take place at our nation's capital. Hundreds of thousands of tremendously dedicated people will march, probably in horribly frigid weather, and some from very far away. The media will politely avert their gaze, as will most of the cosmopolitan denizens of the city. They will feel vaguely sorry for the yokels and wingnuts who trudge through the snow with their silly homemade signs, their hearts full of the vain hope that they can somehow turn back time by praying hard enough. There will also be those who are angry at the sight of the marchers, and see in them a desire for the return of back alley butchers and the shaming of girls who got in a spot of trouble.
I used to be one of those who felt sorry for the idiots who spent their money putting up signs along the Florida Turnpike saying things like: "Abortion stops a beating heart," accompanied by an unpleasant depiction of an embryo. And then one day I was pushed off my horse and I became one of them. I think it happens like that for many people: years of puzzled distaste and then bingo! You're out there too with your silly sign on the side of the road, cringing at rude finger gestures. There is a moment when passion becomes ignited, and you find yourself able to withstand indifference, hopelessness and hostility, even welcoming them.
Read the rest of the article, here, to see what (or who) pushed her off that horse, and how abortion is, at base, a failure to love.
Let us pray and work to end abortion in our nation. Forty-one years of this bloody anniversary is enough.
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"Something nonhuman doesn't become human by getting older and bigger; whatever is human is human from the beginning." -- Randy Alcorn
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Please remember to pray for all the mothers who have lost their children to abortion, and please pray for the marchers that actually made it to D.C. this year. My nephew's college group had to cancel its trip due to the storm, and I know his wasn't the only one.
"I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord. With the friendly and expert help and advice of other people, and as a result of your own painful experience, you can be among the most eloquent defenders of everyone's right to life. Through your commitment to life, whether by accepting the birth of other children or by welcoming and caring for those most in need of someone to be close to them, you will become promoters of a new way of looking at human life." --Pope John Paul
ReplyDeleteGee. I've been waiting eons for something controversial to discuss on Little Catholic Bubble. But this? This is out of my league. All I can say, and it's even what my devout wife says, who am I or anyone else to judge on a decision that is up to one, and only one person: the pregnant girl/woman?
ReplyDeleteThe rest of it is all so much useless noise. One decision. One person to make it. It doesn't get any simpler than that. No?
One decision effecting two people.
DeleteAffecting three people. Don't forget the father.
DeleteBill, would you say the same thing about a mother who wants to kill her two-year-old? Is the decision only up to her? Should we not judge the action as wrong? Should it not be illegal?
ReplyDeleteBill:
ReplyDelete"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!" (1 Cor. 6:2-3).
and
Human acts, that is, acts that are freely chosen in consequence of a judgment of conscience, can be morally evaluated. They are either good or evil. (CCC 1749)
and
To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way: "Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved." (CCC 2477-2478)
Jesus never said that we aren't supposed to judge. He said we aren't supposed to judge UNJUSTLY. I think that declaring the deliberate murder of innocent human beings to be an objectively evil act is a fair and just judgement.
As for the women who choose abortion, they need our prayers. They are most often in crisis. It's not a true choice for them because they feel they have NO other choice. But it's up to us to show them that they do have options, they do have choices, and there is no reason that an innocent child has to die just because s/he was conceived in difficult circumstances.
Also, Leila, thanks for linking to Dr. Christie's testimony! Very inspiring.
ReplyDelete"One decision. One person to make it. It doesn't get any simpler than that."
ReplyDeleteBill, your authority for this? Is this merely your opinion again, stated as fact? Can't I, by your logic, say that it's my "one decision" to punch my neighbor in the face or steal his car? I mean, I guess it's my "one decision" to do a lot of things that are gravely immoral, no?
Sawako and JoAnna, thank you. Great points and references.
"would you say the same thing about a mother who wants to kill her two-year-old?"
ReplyDeleteA 10 week old fetus that I fathered was aborted. Did I lose a two year old?
"A 10 week old fetus that I fathered was aborted. Did I lose a two year old?"
ReplyDeleteNo, you lost a child at a younger age. The child did not make it to two years old.
And, I am sorry for your loss. Did the mother abort your child against your will?
DeleteWow, Bill. I'm so sorry to hear that. Imagine what that baby would have been like. I wonder what they would have become has they grew up. A doctor, a gifted musician. Imagine them looking up adoringly at you, the first time they called you daddy, or said they loved you. All gone in a half hour. Abortion is murder, and no one has the right to murder anyone else, especially not the most innocent among us. Should I murder my 3 year old because he's not as developed as my 5 year old? Same thing with a fetus. They are a person, just still developing. Which they don't do until they are about 12, and then they go into puberty. That logic is ridiculous.
ReplyDeletePeople who want to take away a woman's right to terminate her own pregnancy have no appreciation of what it means to live in a free country. They are trying to impose primarily religiously motivated taboos on people trying to deal with a crisis. Hopefully, they will never be in charge.
ReplyDeleteBill, I'm so sorry for the loss of your child. I can't imagine the pain that you must still feel to this day.
ReplyDeleteI have to reply to your first comment. A couple people have addressed it already, but would you say the same thing about any other grave evil?
"who am I or anyone else to judge on a decision that is up to one, and only one person: the slave owner?"
"who am I or anyone else to judge on a decision that is up to one, and only one person: the domestic abuser?"
"who am I or anyone else to judge on a decision that is up to one, and only one person: the rapist?"
All of those make just as much sense as the original (which is none).
Again, Bill:
ReplyDeleteSubstitute: "People who want to take away a person's right to own a slave have no appreciation of what it means to live in a free country."
and...
"They are trying to impose primarily religiously motivated taboos on people trying to deal with a crisis. Hopefully, they will never be in charge."
Do you realize that ALL laws are based on someone's morality, religious or otherwise? The civil rights movement was led by a reverend. Thank God for that.
RvW means the right to life has now been determined by a judiciary. Extrapolate that out. Let's get educated on the criticisms of that decision.
ReplyDelete"Improvident and extravagant" is a phrase justice Byron R White used regarding the case. Read the critiques, read the criterion.
Bill, what exactly is pregnancy? What is growing inside a woman's womb during those 9 months? A fish? A random clump of cells? Or is it a human life perhaps? Life is a gift given by God and it is not our place to decide who gets that gift and who doesn't. Women deserve better than abortion, which often leaves them emotionally distressed for years after.
ReplyDeleteRather than trying to "impose primarily religiously motivated taboos on people trying to deal with a crisis" -- we're working to give women ALL of their options, praying that they will choose LIFE instead of death. And it's motivated by LOVE, that's what religion boils down to is LOVE, please try to remember that.
I'm very sorry to hear about your loss :(
Leila,
ReplyDeleteIt seems that many of your posts have direct bearing on my life in one way or another. At age 20 my ex had an abortion. I had premarital sex early and often. My wife took the pill for thirty something years. My older son is gay, etc.
I don't repent. Instead, I argue with you to justify myself and I wash my hands of anything religious or moralistic. You've thrown me off your blog, what?, three times? I've lost count. But you always take me back.
You're like Holy Mother Church to me. You're a real pain.
Bill, then I represent hope to you? ;)
ReplyDeleteKeep going, you'll get there.
Sounds like you're doing something right, Leila! ;)
ReplyDeleteBill, thanks for getting the discussion going!
ReplyDeleteBill, do you believe that everyone should be able to live his/her life? Our answer is Yes. From the moment of your conception to your natural death. Pregnancy is simply your stage of development. To kill someone at 10 weeks fetal development, 2 years, 5 years, 13 years, ect is simply to kill that person at a different age. The only thing that is different is really time. In the past, newborns and children were left to die. Do you find it morally right to leave a newborn exposed so that he/she dies? What is the difference between what the other civilizations did with newborns and us with abortion? Perhaps other civilizations should have had a building with people dedicated to discards unwanted babies and children? If it would have been more hidden and "humane?" Oh wait, it is being done in Belgium. I guess we haven't progressed that much seems more of a regress.
The other issue I"ve realized is that it depends what is the point of life. Our view is that the purpose of life is to learn to love. Everything points and leads that. To learn to love is to be in relationships. We get married because we want to love and be loved. It sounds easy but to learn to love is very difficult. It means to put up with others, their weaknesses and failings. Those who are vulnerable, like children, enable us to learn to love... we learn to no longer live for ourselves. We sacrifice ourselves for our children. However society is now trying to change that and say that the purpose of life is to live for ourselves. So they have children to fulfill themselves. (I have a RIGHT to a child or not to have a child!). But do we really have a RIGHT to a person? Are we a happier society by always seeking to "fulfill" ourselves?
In the journal today there is an article of a person who will choose 1 thing each day that makes her happy for 100 days. So she is choosing to be happy for 100 days. Why are there so many articles/books on how to be happy?
In the catholic world view the vulnerable and the disabled are the most precious gifts given since they teach us how to love. Now we are heading towards a society where the purpose of life is to serve society. If you can't help society, you are not worth it. I'll let you think as to where that goal leads.
In the catholic world view, God is love and wishes us to partake in his love and life. He wants us to be like Him. Very different from philosophies where you are god (new Age) or the gods are like us (think Greek and Roman gods).
I could add a few more, but at the end of the day, we all want to love and be loved, we just don't know how to do so. Welcoming a child is the way towards this goal.
I would like to describe my experience with abortion and why I sincerely believe that it is the right of every woman to decide for herself what to do when faced with an unwanted (for any reason) pregnancy.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was twenty, my eighteen year old girlfriend discovered that she was pregnant. I had very informally just stopped calling her because I knew I was just using her and that I had to put an end to the relationship. It was hard to do because I really enjoyed the sexual part of our relationship and I cared for her and didn't want to hurt her.
I started getting letters from her telling me she was pregnant. My best friend told me that she was just telling me that so I would marry her. He told me to just ignore the letters, which I did.
My friends were going away on Spring Break and I joined them. Shortly after I returned, I came home one day to find her sitting and talking to my stepmother, who very coincidently had been neighbors with her mother before her first husband died. It was then that I learned about the abortion. I felt bad then and still do that she had to go through that. Her mother had taken her to New York because it was still illegal in Massachusetts.
I know deep down that I try as hard as I can to make what happened a nonevent. I reason that, at ten weeks, there is no real consciousness capable of knowing who it is or how long it is supposed to live. It was a nonevent except for what she went through. She was most upset at our breakup and I was more relieved than anything else. And guilty.
The alternative seemed at the time to be marrying, quitting school, driving cab for my father and living with someone I didn't love. I never would have married my wife or had my sons. For these reasons I defend a woman's right to an abortion.
Bill, perhaps I've misunderstood, but you seem to be saying that you support a woman's right to have an abortion because a girl you were using for your own sexual pleasure (sorry to sound harsh, but you admit it yourself) told you she was pregnant after you dumped her and it got you out of a fix when she gave up in despair when you wouldn't even reply to her letters and went and had a termination? I understand you never meant your actions to have such devastating consequences, but it rather complicates your initial stance as defender of women and women's rights.
DeleteI fail to see the equality here. You get enjoyable sex followed by a holiday followed by a happy marriage and children. She gets ditched by a guy she was clearly in love with and has to go through an abortion.
Bill, that is a heartbreaking story on so many levels. But could you clarify?
ReplyDelete"The alternative seemed at the time to be marrying, quitting school, driving cab for my father and living with someone I didn't love. I never would have married my wife or had my sons. For these reasons I defend a woman's right to an abortion."
Are you saying it's okay to do away with a child if it might inconvenience or negatively affect the desires of the adults? You are saying that the life of a child is subordinate to the wants of the adults?
Help me understand how this is loving, or good. It sounds to me like you are saying that we can do what we must (no matter how grave) to get what we want. I can't believe that this is the philosophy by which you raised your two born children. It's not, is it?
Bill, see if you can watch the EWTN coverage of March For Life going on as we speak. There was just a group of women from Silent No More talking…. Many had their abortions decades ago and are just now speaking, just now grieving. I can't help but wonder if your ex-girlfriend, who was just a girl, is there. Or if her heart has healed. And there are men who hold their signs, "I regret lost fatherhood". Sometimes it hits years and years later.
ReplyDeleteSuicide attempts are quite a common response to those who have lost their children through abortion. Healing is real, and it's out there. God will forgive you if you turn to Him and ask.
In other words your life became better in many ways when you decided to smarten up and stop using your girlfriend. However a child had to die to get you there. sigh
ReplyDeleteThe alternative seemed to be...... Should a child die for a possibility? You don't know that life would have been miserable. Perhaps it may have been, for a short time, until life straightened itself up. Very often that is why a woman has an abortion thinking about what seems to be. Those that changed their minds before having an abortion find that what seemed to be an awful situation turned out not to be. Life was harder but not miserable.
I've recently learned that my aunt was sent away to have a child. None of her siblings knew. She recently was able to connect with her daughter and now has grandchildren. An abortion would have taken all that life away. She is very, very, very happy. She married twice and had no children from her marriages. It was very difficult and she was very upset. It is a joy to see her now as she is so complete and whole.
It's funny. I turned it on just to hear them mention Italian March for Life and Knights of Columbus (to which I still belong).
ReplyDeleteBill, what a sad story. I can imagine that you and your ex-girlfriend still struggle with this "choice" that was made many years ago.
ReplyDeleteWhat struck me is that you said, had your girlfriend not had an abortion, the only alternative was to quit school and marry a girl you didn't love, which would have resulted in not marrying your wife and having your sons. I find that very sad, since that's not the case at all. We should never sacrifice one life for another (unless it's our own..."Greater love hath no man"). Of course all three children could easily still be here, had your first been placed for adoption. I'm so sorry you had to experience that, and I hope one day you defend other children's right to live.
"It sounds to me like you are saying that we can do what we must (no matter how grave) to get what we want."
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that. Having graduated from a Catholic high school only three years earlier, I doubt very much that I would have done anything other than marry her. If not right away, maybe after I graduated from college. For that to have happened, she would have had to live with her family. Evidentially, that wasn't what her mother wanted because I doubt that the abortion was her idea. Who knows. I never discussed it fully with her. I just told her she did the right thing. What else could I say. What was done was done.
You've hit upon something here:
ReplyDelete"Evidentially, that wasn't what her mother wanted because I doubt that the abortion was her idea."
Most abortions are coercive, and usually the mother or the boyfriend/husband is the source of non-support and pressure. It's terribly tragic, especially when we are talking about teens.
As for what you said about justifying the death of the child, I'll just repeat what you said:
"The alternative seemed at the time to be marrying, quitting school, driving cab for my father and living with someone I didn't love. I never would have married my wife or had my sons. For these reasons I defend a woman's right to an abortion."
This is an ends-justifies-the-means position. I do what I have to do get to the end I want.
"This is an ends-justifies-the-means position."
ReplyDeleteI never planned for any ends by any means. Life just happened. I suppose I am trying to put a positive spin on it.
Bill, please if you can bear it, read this story. It's by a blogger who is on my blog roll. She was coerced into an abortion by her mother when she was just 17. It might help you understand what your ex-girlfriend went through, with no support:
ReplyDeletehttp://postabortionwalk.blogspot.com/2011/07/story-of-my-abortion.html
It may bring you to an understanding that repentance and forgiveness is necessary for healing. I pray she has found healing.
I read it, Leila. Thank you. I am supposed to be working on something for a client. But I'm not up to it. I am watching the march on EWTN.
ReplyDeleteFor the first time, I am thinking about what a hypocrit the mother was. This was likely all very hush, hush. Maybe the father didn't know as in the story. All I know is that she sent a letter a few years later to my stepmother. She and her husband divorced. I wondered what part I had in it.
Bill, do me a favor. Go on over to http://secularprolife.org and tell the folks there all about how abortion "impose[s] primarily religiously motivated taboos" on people. I'm sure they'll be surprised to hear it.
ReplyDeleteJoAnna,
ReplyDeleteFunny you should mention it. I could see myself as possibly a pro-life atheist. Maybe.
"People who want to take away a woman's right to terminate her own pregnancy have no appreciation of what it means to live in a free country."
ReplyDeleteWithout the right to life, one cannot pursue liberty, and without liberty, there can be no pursuit of happiness. Those are ordered and declared as such (not voted upon and given by men) so that citizens of a society might reach the ideal. That begs the question: What is the ideal of a culture that doesn't value the right to life first, as declared by one of our founding documents? Where are we headed?
Abortion is a cultural issue, not merely a religious one.
Healing is there Bill. It will come.
ReplyDeleteMy youngest daughter is marching today, last year my middle daughter who was then pregnant with my grandson and her husband marched, and the year previous to that, my good friend started out marching and ended up praying the rosary in front of protestors on her knees for hours. I am praying for all today - and for Bill and his baby in Mary's arms. My father was an OB/GYN at this time in America's history (he used to recount the stories of repairing botched abortions to us at home because he lived in a college town) - later he returned to med school and became an Anesthesiologist. That just convinced me (in addition to my faith) that I would wait until marriage (which I did). But pressures were many back in the '70s during the college years for girls to sleep with guys - on first dates even - because of the pill - and before AIDS was known about. Can't tell you how many times I had to tell guys that there was no way I was sleeping with them at the beginning of a date - (yes, how rude!) - girls were just seen as objects and they went along with it. I'm so sorry that my generation did this to the generations to come - so very sorry. Grateful that I could pass on my faith to my girls - thankful for the Jason and Crystallina Everts - and Pope John Paul II - and Christopher Wests - for the Theology of the Body and making girls and young men take responsibility once again. Praying the rosary today for all the Innocents.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately divorce is VERY common among post-abortive women. Usually it's between the married couple, but I do wonder if her abortion had something to do with it. Especially if she hasn't healed from it. Very sad.
ReplyDeleteHere is something I just posted on facebook, and I really want an answer:
ReplyDeleteA puzzling part of Obama's statement celebrating 41 years of abortion today:
"We reaffirm our steadfast commitment to protecting a woman’s access to safe, affordable health care and her constitutional right to privacy, including the right to reproductive freedom. And we resolve to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies…"
So, that last part. What? How does that make sense? He just celebrated "freedom" and "rights", so why would we then "resolve to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies"? What for? I thought abortion was fabulous, and to be celebrated? Help me out, someone….
It's obvious that he thinks it is better not to unintentionally get pregnant in the first place. Do you dislike the man so much that you even have a problem with him wanting to reduce unwanted pregnancies so as to reduce abortions?
ReplyDeleteI don't get the logic, Bill. If abortion is such a fabulous thing, why are unintended pregnancies bad? Why bother trying to reduce them at all if abortion exists? That's what is so puzzling about his statement.
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference between protecting women's rights and promoting abortion. I think you and Leila are just being difficult.
ReplyDeleteIt's how he's going about reducing pregnancies that we question. Why not promote abstinence and self-discipline? Why not be honest with people that life isn't actually about pleasure, but about embracing selfless love (not to get confused with affectionate love). I still want to understand why sex seems so necessary to people.
ReplyDeleteSince I'm in the process of discerning the religious life, I'm facing the possibility of being a lifelong virgin, which actually doesn't upset me too much. Sure, sex seems appealing to me if I were called to married life, but I can also live without it. What am I missing??
What about the rights of the unborn person in the womb???
ReplyDeleteOh Margo, Margo, Margo.
ReplyDeleteWhat I wouldn't give to be young and innocent again.
Hey, if you are free of the urge to procreate or die trying and want to be celibate, go for it.
Women's rights come before fetus rights. That's just the way it is. It's the way of the world in which we live.
So survival of the fittest then? The strong rule over the weak? Humans decide who lives and who dies? Is that really how you want things to be? Because that can get nasty VERY quickly. What if instead, we embraced all people, each individual person with love?
ReplyDeleteWomen's rights come before fetus rights. That's just the way it is. It's the way of the world in which we live.
ReplyDeleteIncorrect according to our Declaration.
Life
Liberty
Pursuit of Happiness
Ordered that way for a purpose. Not voted upon by men, merely acknowledged by men.
Before RvW, objective criterion was in place. Goal posts didn't shift. A judiciary had no power to change that.
But they went ahead and did so. You see no error in the Court's decision based on what?
Do you see no error in the Court's original decision in the Dred Scott case, as well?
Bill, I am forever thankful that MLK Jr. didn't listen when people told him, "White people's rights come before black people's rights. That's just the way it is. It's the way of the world in which we live."
ReplyDeleteObama's method to protect women's rights is to promote and encourage abortion, Bill. I don't see how it's being "difficult" to question his logic. Why are unintended pregnancies bad if abortion is good?
It's the way it's been for almost 3 billion years. It doesn't matter if it's the way I want it. It's the way it is. It's how we got to where we are today.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Bill, are you saying that Margo can't possibly know how the world works because she's a young woman? That seems quite misogynistic. I hope I'm misunderstanding you.
ReplyDeleteBill, I thought we were supposed to change the world in which we live? If there is evil, we work for good. Do you not believe in what MLK said and did, then?
ReplyDeleteAlso, the Democratic Party has already dropped the word "rare" from their Platform (as in "abortion should be safe, legal and rare"), so aren't they being more consistent than Obama right now? Why do you think I am being difficult in asking the question, when the Party itself has dropped the word "rare"? What do they see that you don't? If abortion is so fabulous, and should not even be rare, then what on earth could be wrong with unintended pregnancies?
Gosh, Bill, I was nowhere near as innocent as Margo when I was that young, and yet I still see the world the same way she does. What gives?
ReplyDeleteSo a court can never error? And there's no need for a reversal of a court ruling, even if the decision was based on bogus criterion?
ReplyDelete* err
ReplyDeleteAnd, Leila - "And we resolve to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies…" through teaching abstinence, right?
Nubby, riiiiight! Chastity education is what he had in mind!! ;)
ReplyDeleteOf course they had to drop the word "rare" because by saying it should be rare, they are admitting there is something wrong with it.
ReplyDeleteSo many of my friends affected by the scourge of abortion, including my wonderful friend Kelly:
ReplyDeletehttp://pewlady.blogspot.com/2014/01/roe-v-wade-and-i-find-i-dont-really.html
Is abortion really about women's rights? Are any of these types of social laws really about "rights?" To my understanding, Margaret Sanger never tried to pass off abortion as women's rights. Why not? Because it had nothing to do with rights! It had more to do with eugenics and social control. I don't think much has changed.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, I just don't understand how we can make committing suicide illegal, but abortion is a right?? I suppose many pro-choicers are also pro-euthanasia, but by the "not telling anyone else what is right for them" mentality then shouldn't they be pro-suicide for any child, teen or adult as well? After all isn't it their right, at any age or state of mind to determine if life is worth living?
As a societal norm most citizens would stop to talk someone off a ledge or keep them from swallowing a bullet, yet we'd say "good for you" for making your "one decision" to have an abortion and sign up for a life long of anguish and self-doubt? Don't we have a duty to at the very, very least make sure all women are fully informed of their reproductive rights and the REAL ramifications of abortion? It just makes me sick that it's painted as an easy out. It is a horrendous road for the parents and a brutal way to die for the baby.
Bill S, I'm sorry for getting so frustrated with your comments in the past. My heart breaks for you. I'll keep you in my prayers.
ReplyDeleteJessica, you wrote:
ReplyDeleteI suppose many pro-choicers are also pro-euthanasia, but by the "not telling anyone else what is right for them" mentality then shouldn't they be pro-suicide for any child, teen or adult as well? After all isn't it their right, at any age or state of mind to determine if life is worth living?
No need for conjecture, friend. What you allude to is already underway:
Pro-death Insanity Envelops Belgium
In a hundred and one ways now, Western society, having largely rejected God, and, consequently, having lost the major part of its sanity, is hellbent on annihilating itself. Today the pressure is on pregnant women - even those who earnestly want children - to abort, for the flimsiest of reasons. Tomorrow the pressure will undoubtedly be on large swathes of the population, and definitely on an older and frailer you or me, to kill ourselves.
sarahcecelia,
ReplyDeleteNo problem. I frustrate everyone. It's what I do (-;
Those who justify abortion as necessary murder understandably do not subscribe to any real need for it to be “rare”.
ReplyDelete“An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun.”
~ Plan Your Children, Planned Parenthood brochure, 1962
“No one shrinks from what abortion means: the irrevocable ending of… [a] unique human being. To be unequivocally, all-out for life, any life, is quite satisfying to the soul, but it’s an ethical indulgence I cannot afford. The bottom line is, someone’s rights are going to take precedence. I vote for the woman.”
~ Editorial by Dana Tueth Motley of The Abortion Rights Coalition, Daily Illini, University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana, February 9, 1982
“… those who support a woman’s right to choose abortion also need to face the truth… Abortion is not merely a medical procedure. It is the tearing from the womb our own flesh and blood. It is a sacrifice of life, hopefully for life.”
~ Naomi Ruth Lowinsky, Stories from the Mother Line: Reclaiming the Mother-Daughter Bond, Finding Our Feminine Souls, Los Angeles: Jeremy P Tarcher, 1992, pg 207
“Abortion should be legal; it is sometimes even necessary. Sometimes the mother must be able to decide that the fetus, in its full humanity, must die. But it is never right or necessary to minimize the value of the lives involved or the sacrifice incurred in letting them go.”
~ Naomi Wolf, “Our Bodies, Our Souls”, New Republic, 16 October, 1995
“I support Roe versus Wade wholeheartedly. And I do so even when acknowledging to myself that at some point, perhaps even after the first trimester, abortion becomes infanticide…”
~ Former New York Mayor Ed Koch, Robert P. Casey Fighting For Life (Dallas, TX: Word Publishing, 1996) 250
“[It is preferable to be] avoiding a coarsening of humanity that can result from the taking of life. Pro-choice advocates may bristle at such a claim, [but they would do well] “to present abortion as a complex issue that involves loss and to be saddened by that loss at the same time as we affirm and support women’s decisions to end pregnancies.”
~ Frances Kissling, (president of Catholics for Free Choice), “Is There Life after Roe? How to Think about the Fetus”, Winter 2004/5 issue of Conscience.
“When I did squarely confront abortion as a possibility, it was a very difficult decision. ….I had to weigh the responsibility I felt for the developing life within me against the moral, material, and practical responsibilities of my daughters’ well being…I have never, not once, questioned my choice to have that abortion.”
~ Kate Michelman, President NARAL, “Protecting the Right to Choose” (New York: Plume, 2005) 4, 7
“We can accept that the embryo is a living thing in the fact that it has a beating heart, that it has its own genetic system within it. It’s clearly human in the sense that it’s not a gerbil, and we can recognize that it is human life… the point is not when does human life begin, but when does it really begin to matter?”
~ Ann Furedi, Chief Executive, BPAS (largest independent abortion providerin the UK), “Abortion: A Civilized Debate”, Battle of Ideas, (London, England, November 1, 2008).
“While opponents of abortion eagerly describe themselves as “pro-life,” the rest of us have had to scramble around with not nearly as big-ticket words like “choice” and “reproductive freedom.” The “life” conversation is often too thorny to even broach. Yet I know that throughout my own pregnancies, I never wavered for a moment in the belief that I was carrying a human life inside of me. I believe that’s what a fetus is: a human life. And that doesn’t make me one iota less solidly pro-choice.”
~ Mary Elizabeth Williams, Staff Writer, Salon, So what if abortion ends life?, Jan 23, 2013
If it is a woman’s right to decide when life begins to matter for her children, surely as night follows day, it will also be her right one day to decide when it doesn’t matter anymore.
Further noteworthy rationale for free and easy murder:
ReplyDelete1. IT'S HYPOCRITICAL TO FOCUS ON ABORTION WHILE OTHER MURDERS HAPPEN AND SOLDIERS GO OFF TO WAR TO KILL THEIR ENEMIES:
“There is much discussion about the destruction of the fetus, called murder by some… This particular form of murder, if it be that, seems a somewhat hypocritical concern in a society that does little to prevent some 30,000 annual criminal murders and that condones, as do most societies, murder in the service of the national goals determined by its leadership.”
~ Stephen Fleck, “A Psychiatrist’s View on Abortion” , David F Walbert and J Douglas Butler” Abortion, Society and the Law (Cleveland: Case Western Reserve press, 1973) 181
2. LIFE IS OBVIOUSLY NOT SACRED:
“There clearly is no logical or moral distinction between a fetus and a young baby; free availability of abortion cannot be reasonably distinguished from euthanasia. Nevertheless we are for it. It is too facile to say that human life is always sacred; obviously it is not.”
~ “The Unborn and the Born Again”, editorial, New Republic, July 2, 1977, 6
3. AN ABORTED BABY IS MERELY THE BYPRODUCT OF A SURGERY THAT IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER:
“Basically, the parade in front of the 30 S. Michigan clinic was nothing but a shameless effort to exploit the human emotions that are invoked any time people see blood. I think what’s deliberately obscured by the organizers of that March is the real issue of whether a woman has a constitutional right to control her own reproductive functions… And what the protesters have done today is an attempt to manipulate public opinion by showing the byproducts that we’d really see in the consequence of any surgery.”
~ Colleen Connell. Head of Reproductive Rights Project of the ACLU, Monica Migliorino Miller Abandoned: the Untold Story of the Abortion Wars (Charlotte, North Carolina: St. Benedict Press, 2012)
I'd better stop now, before our dear Leila bursts an artery in her head or something. Ugh.
Oh Francis. That makes me weep.
ReplyDeleteThere is no place in a civilized society for selfishness.
Hey Margo,
ReplyDeleteYou said “I still want to understand why sex seems so necessary to people.
Since I'm in the process of discerning the religious life, I'm facing the possibility of being a lifelong virgin, which actually doesn't upset me too much. Sure, sex seems appealing to me if I were called to married life, but I can also live without it. What am I missing??
I really wanted to address this in hopes that I can be helpful to you. I think I’ve struggled with the questions your asking and I want to give you a level of understanding that I’m finally coming to myself. Understanding doesn’t mean you agree it literally means you get where other people are coming from which can be SO HARD when they are coming from a completely different place than you.
I don’t know what your friend group looks like but have you ever been to like a real party or bar and seen people drink until they cant stand or seen people hook up in public or head stories of one night stands and such from before. I ask only because it’s much more easily explained if you’ve seen those things.
I’ve definitely been in weird situations where I didn’t really understand the behavior going on and it was foreign to me why people thought the things they were doing were okay. The realization I’ve come to and its so simple that it won’t mean something to you unless is does, but: people are different. I mean really really really different. They have different vices different wants. So to answer your question, you’re not missing anything but you’re a different PERSON than other people and they are a different person than you. Sex isn’t to you what it is to other people and vice versa. Sex isn’t to me what it is to a lot of people, and it took me a long time to understand what that meant, why other people were having one night stands when I was incapable of it (even though sex interested me a lot). It was the same reason that I cant live without sweets and other people can. That wasn’t a great explanation but it’s a start and ill happily explain more if I can.
CS
CS, I don't mean to jump in between you and Margo (I am interested in Margo's response), but I appreciate your thoughtfulness here. Let me ask you: Why do you think people have one-night stands? I am guessing it's generally because they want or seek some level of happiness, and yet it seems like those one-night stands don't bring about the happiness that they seem to "promise" in the heat of the moment. Do you agree?
ReplyDeleteAnd what about the concept of vice? You mention that we all have "different vices". But aren't vices bad for all people, even those who crave them?
I too appreciate your thoughtful response, CS.
ReplyDeleteI agree that it's very difficult to understand people when their perceptions are polar opposite of our own. But, I guess I can somewhat understand the nature of a vice. Especially since I struggle with my own vices, but I think the keyword there is struggle. I do try to resist my vice (which has been late night snacking lately). I recognize that it's wrong and somewhat of a disorder, yet it's where I get some sort of pleasure. I'm waiting for more people to recognize that sex-outside-of-marriage is even more wrong, since it involves using another human being as opposed to using food.
And no, I'm not much of a party/bar person; I prefer much lower key activities and smaller groups of friends (I am such an introvert). And I'd rather not see my friends get wasted since not only does that put them in physical danger (alcohol poisoning, liver damage), but it's also gravely sinful to drink alcohol to excess/get drunk since it affects our judgment. I have nothing against alcohol in moderation though :)
It just makes me wonder why humans seem to crave pleasure so much? Why is temperance/moderation such a challenge? Why can't we just allow God to fully satisfy us?
Leila,
ReplyDeleteI can reflect on this after years of being around it and so I have a better perspective than when we started speaking a few years ago. I didn’t really get it at first but now I think I do.
I think people have one night stands because they are ‘fun’ not because they make one happy and I think generally speaking they deliver on that promise. For men they typically lead to orgasm which is a reason within itself. and for everyone they offer buildup, the thrill of the chase, a new friend/something to obsess over and a great story to tell your friends and to talk about for years to come. It seem silly to you it certainly seemed silly to me for a while but I get it now and in many ways regret not really participating.
I was using the term vice mainly for Margo’s benefit and I certainly understand the classical definition. IAt this point I don’t feel particularly invested in ‘vice’ for vice sake an virtue for virtue sake ;)
CS
Margo,
ReplyDeleteI figured you weren’t much of a drinker ;). The only reason I asked is because I think watching drunk people especially drunk young people is a wonderful way to understand the human condition. I mean alcohol is disgusting to the taste literally poisonous to the body and often makes you sick the next day, but people love the stuff. I don’t say that to defend it or mock it but just to say when you can UNDERSTAND why people drink you can understand people. The first time you see people vomiting up on themselves and passing out, its crazy, but there is a point in which you ‘get it’. Getting it doesn’t mean you have to condone or partake in it, but its hard to combat alcohol when you don’t have a solid understand of why people keep picking it up.
You struggle against vice because you think they are intrinsically bad. (Some) other people think things are only as bad as the consequences they deliver, which hopefully gives you insight into why you struggle against your vices and other people don’t necessarily. Sometimes you get drunk and you die of alcohol poison or crash your car. Sometimes you have sex and have a baby or get the clap but a lot a lot a lot of the time neither of those things happen, and that is something to remember too.
CS
Hmm...I just thought of another main difference. I'm always considering two different effects for my decisions: 1) How it will effect my life now and 2) How it will effect my eternal life.
ReplyDeleteDo you ever think about eternal consequences CS? Do you think it's possible that the decisions (i.e. to get drunk vs. to only have 1 or 2 drinks) we make now could effect how we spend eternity?
I do admit that I want to hear the Christian perspective from CS, as she is a professing Christian (true?). So, why would you regret not playing in the "fun" of a one night stand, if you know from all of Christian tradition and the words of Christ that it's completely immoral to treat sex in such a cavalier manner?
ReplyDeleteWhat does your Christianity mean to you?
And, do you think it's most often true that eventually the "fun" of drinking, anonymous/promiscuous sex, etc., tends to leave one empty and sad, rather than joyful and fulfilled? Because if you look at Hollywood for (just one) example, where the sex and "fun" and partying is free-flowing… how do those folks usually end up? Isn't there a cautionary tale here somewhere?
As I've said before, CS, the most pain that most women feel in their lives has something to do with the misuse of human sexuality: Being used and discarded, having an abortion, getting disease, divorce, rape, molestation as a child, objectification of all kinds, etc. Note that while one may not "get the clap" or have a baby from illicit sex, there are a million young girls and older girls who have their hearts torn in two after being used and thrown away. Happens every day.
ReplyDeleteEven my secular, Jewish neighbor had to agree when I told her that the deepest wounds most women have are because of the misuse of sexuality. She understood that to be true, even though she did not hang with any kind of Catholic crowd. It's just a truth that we can all recognize, no?
It was you who famously told me that your college friends could find no down side to the hook-up culture except for the "constant sobbing". Yep, that sounds like "fun times" to me… ;)
Exactly Leila! That's a whole other reason why I feel so strongly about sex outside marriage. I don't want to get my heart broken. Plus, in the past I have struggled with getting a little too emotionally attached to other people and those were all chaste relationships/friendships. I can't even imagine what having sex would do to me (outside of marriage) except give me far more emotional pain than I could handle.
ReplyDeleteFinally, I understand the inherent nature of sex that I literally cannot violate it. Sex is meant for a husband and wife to come together as one for the purpose of giving themselves completely to one another and for the possibility of children. Science even confirms this with the oxytocin hormone that is released - the whole purpose of which is to permanently bind husband and wife together. That's why there is SO much pain if a boy and girl have sex and then break up, they're being ripped apart. And the pain is so unnecessary.
Just as hangovers are completely unnecessary; people can choose to only have 1 or 2 drinks. I realize that people can get caught up in the moment, but that's why practicing self discipline is so important, so that we're always ready and able to resist sinful temptations.
CS, if you're Christian, what do you think about us not knowing the day or hour when Christ will return for the final judgment? Would people really want to greet Jesus being completely wasted?
Sorry if I threw too much at you. Maybe I need to learn some self discipline with my overactive mind ;)
Hi Margo,
ReplyDeleteDrinking isn’t a huge vice of mine but I’ve been around it enough that I understand it. But no to answer your questions I don’t largely think of the things I do unless they were particularly bad things, in terms of my afterlife.
CS
What would be an example of a "particularly bad thing"? Do you think it's possible that we might not all go to Heaven? Have you even thought about truly putting Christ first in your life?
ReplyDeleteLeila,
ReplyDeleteI’m more of an agnostic Christian in that I don’t feel compelled to adhere to everything in the bible. I had a discussion with my pastor about how premarital sex isn’t immoral but that’s neither here nor there. (it’s morality or not doesn’t have much bearing on my opinion of it.
I don’t disagree that a lot of people have been burned by sex in some capacity. I’m not at all trying to refute that. But I don’t want to ignore the other side of the coin and ignore the changing sexual landscape and the downside to not participating. I hooked up very little in college because I was very uncomfortable with it and it’s surprisingly become somewhat problematic in my current relationship. I’ve had this conversation with several girlfriends who were not big into hooking up in college, no one regrets the couple of awful experiences. The regrets (ironically are that we didn’t do it more. I don’t pretend that I can see into the future and that this wont change, but I am able to see that ehe meaning of experience and ‘slut’ are changing and its having clear effects.
CS
How are you both an agnostic and a Christian? Do you believe in Christ? That He came and died for you. That He would have gone through His entire Crucifixion (the scourging, crown of thorns, carrying of the cross, being nailed to the Cross) even if you were the only person on Earth? That's how much He loves you, CS. He's not just some faraway being who has no interest in our lives. Jesus cares about everything you do and is waiting for you to embrace His love. How can you just ignore all that? How can anyone ignore the extent of Christ's love? What could possibly trump the Crucifixion?
ReplyDelete"The regrets (ironically are that we didn’t do it more. [hook up]"
ReplyDeletePlease, sister.
How would this have made you a better woman, in any capacity? You'd never have been called x, y, z? And this is a "regret"?
You patronize Margo with these, "I know better than you because, I've, you know, actually seen drunk people". Please, honey. I've dated college star athletes, been drunk more than I care to remember and the lot of it- Margo isn't missing a beat.
In fact, Margo- please remember me when you enter your order. I'll need your prayers.
CS- you don't need to worry about helping Margo "see reality". What is your declared major?
Hi CS,
ReplyDeleteJust curious about how your lack of hooking up in college has hindered your current relationships? I can't grasp how that would be relational, because I didn't hook up in college and it never affected my relationships after...
Also, do you really believe premarital sex to be moral? Like a good thing? Not just feeling good in the moment, but an objectively good thing? Because even when I act in opposition of what I know is right, I can admit I am being immoral. And thankfully, there is confession available so I can get a fresh start and try again...
I hope you are well. I've been a lurker since you first started commenting. That feels double creepy to type, but it's true! :) I hope your dad is doing well also. Take care.
Nubby, thanks!
ReplyDeleteI'll add that I went to the biggest party school in New England. I've seen drunk people, too. And I've been drunk. And I lived the Planned Parenthood lifestyle. I still agree with Margo.
And I don't get how something's morality doesn't have any bearing on your opinion of it. I am puzzled and can't sort that out.
C, welcome!
ReplyDeleteNubby,
ReplyDeleteI dont know why you rudely and patronizingly interject yourself into other peoples conversations. I didnt patronize Margo, and if she feels patronized, she is free to tell me so and I will adjust my tone. Margo was asking what I thought was a genuine question about temptation and why people feel the 'need' to have sex. I am saying that actually seeing people party and do seemingly illogical things for the sake of fun has helped me to understand human nature better, something she said she was interested in doing. But I don't know why I'm telling you this, since I think Margo understood exactly what I was saying.
I get to have my feelings about things i regretting doing in college as do you. They are valid to me and I have every right to them.
Ive been out of college for almost 3 years, it was just a moniker.
CS
No, she's not interested in "seeing people party and do illogical things."
ReplyDeleteShe's saying she doesn't need to see that.
What was your major?
Exactly Nubby! I also do not feel as if I'm missing out on anything by remaining a virgin, possibly for my entire life. There's SO SO SO much more to life than alcohol and sex. Yeah I could have a few minutes of sexual pleasure, give a guy an orgasm, but at what cost? I ain't sacrificing my relationship with Christ nor my purity nor my self-respect. No man is going to use me for pleasure, that's for sure! I demand respect and love for who I am as a whole -- all my qualities as well as my weaknesses.
ReplyDeleteCS - could you please answer my question about Christ and His love for you? How can you ignore it? Or think you're better off without His love??
,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for the well wishes for my father, it is very meaningful to me.
It’s almost difficult to explain, my bf has had 8 times the number of partners as I have and it’s caused subtle issues. But in general having a vastly different experience from your peers and being/coming of as, judgmental can be alienating Not having anything to contribute to conversations, not having stories to tell, or exes to make your bf extra protective, making sex out to be a big deal with when it won’t be, is ultimately just disappointing. I’m not saying it should be or that other people feel this way, only that I think I’d have a better sex life, a better romantic relationship, and be less judgmental of the people around me, had I had more experiences in college.
I don’t really have any opinions on the morality or not of premarital sex. Perhaps it’s a sign of the times; in fact I know it is. I know there was a point a few years ago where I thought it was immoral (which is perhaps why I wasn’t interested in it ) but now, I would by lying if I said I thought it was bad.
CS
Margo,
ReplyDeleteyour such a sweetheart. Its something I'd rather do later, after I have a better understanding of life. Somehow I think he'll understand
Why procrastinate perfect love? Why deprive yourself of Jesus who loves you perfectly? So you can think of the Crucifixion and just shrug it off? Like it means nothing?
ReplyDeleteAnd 8 times the number of sexual partners? That doesn't bother you? What if you could have a man who was entirely devoted to you? Who loved you enough to abstain from sex until marriage?
How is premarital sex moral? Just because it's popular? Does popularity equal morality? That's a dangerous dangerous road...yikes!
Although I must say you remind me quite a bit of St. Augustine who famously said something along the lines of "Lord, I want to be good, just not yet" and then later changed his tune to "Late have I loved thee O Lord". He was also very much into sex, then converted and became a bishop later in his life. I highly recommend his book called Confessions.
ReplyDeleteHis other famous quote is "Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in you", which means that nothing, not even the most pleasurable sex could completely fulfill us, that's a job only God can do when we give Him our hearts. Why resist that? I'm sure St. Augustine would urge to not make the same mistakes he did.
CS, your comment at 10:51 breaks my heart. I used to be where you are. Now, as a married woman of 23 years, I'd give anything to do it all over. My next post is nearly complete, and when you see it you'll understand why everything you said is so sad to me. If not having more sex stories to tell is hurting your relationship… I just beg you to find a man who is not interested in your previous sex stories to begin with, and who wishes he hadn't slept with eight times the partners you have. Oh, it makes me so sad. :(
ReplyDeleteMargo,
ReplyDeleteThe way you think gives you tremendous self discipline. The way I think as an agnostic gives me zero self discipline.
Putting aside the idea of living to please a deity and living with that deity for all eternity just for a moment, self discipline is still the ultimate freedom.
I can relate to Augustine when he said in so many words "give me self discipline but not yet". I don't worry about my lack of self discipline impacting my afterlife. I know that there is no such thing. But just thinking about how much this life would have been better the more self discipline I exercised convinces me of its importance.
Think about this life and what you would do with it if you could stop worrying about the next. It will still lead you to live a good life.
Bill, there is freedom in knowing where we are going. I can't speak for Margo, but I don't "worry" about the next life, I look forward to it. Its' my home. Why would I worry about going home? I live a good life of discipline to get there safely. :)
ReplyDeleteNever write when you first wake up, Leila: "It's"
DeleteHi Leila,
ReplyDeleteNo i wasnt saying that he wishes I had more partners, he doesn't wish that at all. I was just saying I think our relationship would be easier had I. I don't have stories to tell friends, but no my bf prefers that I dont have stories.
Congrats to your daughter ;)
CS
You get enjoyable sex followed by a holiday followed by a happy marriage and children. She gets ditched by a guy she was clearly in love with and has to go through an abortion.
ReplyDeleteYou are linking the worst thing I ever did in my life (there isn't even a close second) with my stand on women's rights to safe and legal abortions.
I don't think that is fair. If I came across as being pro-choice based on that experience (it's been a while since I commented on this thread), then I need to clarify that that is not my reason for being pro-choice. I don't see where prohibiting a woman from having an abortion is more in her best interests than letting her have the option. It seems like you are for taking away her rights and I am for securing them. My experience is irrelevant to the argument.
Sorry if I misinterpreted. It came across as though that experience was why you thought abortion was a good thing. Like I said, I understand that you didn't foresee the consequences of your actions and you can't go back and change it now. I suppose my thinking is that there are other things you could do to promote respect for women in society other than support abortion. For instance, warn other young men (or older men, come to that!) to think twice before getting sexually involved with a woman before they're sure of their own feelings. So, at least your ex-girlfriend didn't put her life in danger, but we're very much talking about the lesser of two evils here. I think the tendency in our society to minimize abortion (it gives women control over their body, it's just a clump of cells, it's better for the child) is not encouraging to more responsible behaviour.
DeleteYes. I may have said something to the effect that I in some way benefitted from the legalization of abortion. But my present argument is separate from that.
ReplyDeleteIt is hard for me to get across the fact that the bad thing that happened 42 years ago was not the abortion itself. The bad thing was using and abandoning someone who loved me the way she did. That is what I regret. I only regret the abortion as far as the impact it had on her. If she carries a lot of guilt because of what the Church and the prolifers say about it, I feel bad. If she just ignores them, then I would feel better about that.
'I only regret the abortion as far as the impact it had on her. If she carries a lot of guilt because of what the Church and the prolifers say about it, I feel bad. If she just ignores them, then I would feel better about that.'
DeleteYou see, this is the bit that's bothering me. It seems rather like you're deflecting your own sense of guilt onto Leila and the Church. Have you ever had an abortion yourself? Or a miscarriage? A woman's body and mental state don't tend to react well to either of these things. Very few women get through these things unscathed. And that's before we get to the moral issue of how developed a human fetus is by 10 weeks.
Right, Bill, because no woman would ever feel innately bad about killing her own child nestled safely in her womb unless "those other people" made her feel bad. (eye roll)
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but it actually would be a scary thing if women (and men) kill their children (at any age/stage) feeling zero guilt or problem with that.
Step outside of yourself and think about that.
You read the story of the woman who had an abortion at 17 that I linked. You know that "other people" in her life made her do it (her mom). She still somehow feels guilty and crushed. The functioning conscience is a funny and marvelous thing. It serves to protect us and keep us human, so we shouldn't be trying to crush those prompts.
And to clarify, I am devastated for that woman who was forced to kill her child at 17. I don't want her to feel guilty or crushed anymore…. she has been forgiven by God. But to imply that there should be no guilt felt when one kills one's own child… that would imply a non-functioning conscience, which we don't want in people. We want functioning consciences, for our own sakes and the sake of those around us.
ReplyDeleteI know that she must have felt terrible as it was. What I am trying to say is that it doesn't help if, on top of feeling innately awful about what she had done, she also has to see and hear people making it seem even worse.
ReplyDeleteBill, I always mean not to be judgmental in these posts, and I always get carried away by my feelings. We're on the level, you and me. We've all done it. We've all convinced ourselves that something that we know isn't right is ok because it makes us feel good. I'm actually a person with very little self-control - I'm quite capable of doing what you did. I'm also a complete chicken, so I can well imagine going off to an abortion clinic trying to convince myself that everything is going to be ok because I can't face going through pregnancy alone.
DeleteNevertheless, surely you can see that if we all kept quiet about things that are wrong so as not to make anybody feel bad then we would never prevent wrong things happening. I'm grateful for the teachers who showed us pictures of abortion when we were young enough to not have to face that sudden decision having never thought about it before. They didn't force it in our faces and they said anybody who didn't want to look at it didn't have to, but they didn't just sugarcoat the thing as some beautiful human right that gives women control over their bodies and lives. Deceiving people so that they never feel bad about themselves is ultimately unkind. You lull them into a false sense of security and by the time their lives are in a mess it's too late to go back.
And that's before we get to the moral issue of how developed a human fetus is by 10 weeks.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't "before" we get into the moral issue. It is "instead" of getting into the moral issue. It's immoral to use someone and abandon them when she needs and loves you. I must deal with that guilt. You're not going to pile on more because of your issue with abortion. That's your issue, not mine.
You see now I'm really confused. You said she must have felt awful about what she'd done (must have felt she had to do at the time). Now you're saying it's my issue. If nothing happened that was wrong why should you or her or anyone else feel guilty? And how can I possibly make it worse if I'm talking out of my backside?
DeleteFiddlesticks, well said. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteBill, no the child was your son or daughter. The child is your issue, not Fiddlesticks'. Your son or daughter was your responsibility, as was his or her mother.
Please, let's not deflect. It's the truth and yes it hurts to look at. But there is redemption for those who desire it.
eila and Fiddlesticks,
ReplyDeleteI could really use her forgiveness and that is it. I don't need any other kind of redemption. That is where you are both barking up the wrong tree.
Bill, I get that you don't want redemption for your child's killing. But the child's short life and violent death is a reality, regardless. That will not change, even if you have no remorse.
ReplyDeleteLeila,
ReplyDeleteI understand how your religion might make you see more than I see in a ten week old fetus such as the notion that it had an eternal soul and that God had a plan for it and all that. But to me it is a ten week fetus with far less consciousness than a mouse. It might have had the potential to develop into a mature person, but potential is just potential.
Bill,
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of reasons aside from religion for believing that human being should have human rights regardless of their age, size, level of development, or location. See http://secularprolife.org. Your son or daughter was not a potential human being, but rather a human being with potential.
By the way, did you know that New Atheist Christopher Hitchens was pro-life?
Bill, you could say the same exact thing for a newborn. Would you feel something terrible has occurred to a newborn if he were killed?
ReplyDeleteJoAnna,
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with nonrelgious explanations for people opposing abortion. I also don't agree with religious explanations but at least they make sense to me in that if that religion is true, then no one should ever have an abortion. But I know of no true religion.
Leila,
ReplyDeleteA baby is much more developed than a ten week old fetus. Why do you think I would be ok with killing a baby?
Because that's the argument you used:
ReplyDelete"But to me it is a [newborn] with far less consciousness than a mouse. It might have had the potential to develop into a mature person, but potential is just potential."
By the way, do you know what "fetus" actually means? What is a fetus, Bill?
When a woman is "with child", what is she "with"?
ReplyDeleteThere is no sense in our arguing about this because you will never concede that a woman should be given the choice and the laws will never be changed except for state laws that are presented as based on health and safety but are really to make it more difficult to get an abortion.
ReplyDeleteNo, Bill, I will never concede that anyone has the right to kill an innocent human being in any circumstance. I'm sorry you will.
ReplyDeleteJoAnna,
ReplyDeleteWhat you are saying is that you can't admit that such a decision is not yours to make for anyone but for yourself.
Bill, if that's true, then as the great atheist Peter Singer says, killing one's own newborn (up to three months) is also no one's decision to make but the mother/parents.
ReplyDeleteAnd the crazy thing is, every human being knows that we may not morally kill innocent human beings. I have a post coming up on that.
I disagree, Bill. I think human rights abuses should be everyone's concern.
ReplyDeleteWould you say that only slave owners should have been able to decide whether or not to own slaves? Were abolitionists wrong to get involved in what what's a legal practice at that time?
My support of abortion rights declines as the age of the fetus increases. I don't have any scientific reason for this. It is just intuitive that it is more humane to terminate a pregnancy sooner rather than later.
ReplyDeleteDirect abortion is never "humane," no matter the age of the unborn child. I have scientific and philosphical reasons for believing this, because it is dangerous to grant or take away human rights of other human beings based on subjective feelings or intuitions.
ReplyDeleteI think human rights abuses should be everyone's concern.
ReplyDeleteI think denying abortion rights is a human rights abuse.
Killing innocent human beings is a human right? Since when?
ReplyDeleteSorry, I forget, Bill. Where does the right to kill other innocent human beings come from? There is a life in that womb, and it's not yours and it's not the mothers. Where does the right to kill that life come from?
ReplyDeleteAccess to safe and legal abortion is a woman's right and therefore a human right.
ReplyDeleteBy your logic, owning slaves was also a human right back in 1835.
ReplyDeleteBill, please answer: since when has killing innocent human beings been a human right?
Leila and JoAnna,
ReplyDeleteYou ask where a woman's right to access to safe, legal abortion comes from. Let me turn it around. Where does your right to try to deny that access come from. When you answer that question, you will be showing how presumptuous you are.
At some point I get bored of this question. I've worked with a charity that attempts to rescue women (did I say women - sometimes children as young as ten) who REALLY have no control over their bodies. They're forced to have sex and they're forced to have abortions. Legal or illegal it doesn't make any difference. The law never touches the most vulnerable. I'd rather help them if I can than waste energy trying to stop people having abortions who actually have some choices in their lives.
DeleteThe sad thing is though, I'm predicting that in 20 years time (or maybe even 10) we'll be back on this blog with Bill arguing that Leila is being presumptuous for denying a parent's right to kill their disabled child or their senile grandmother. After all, she's not responsible for caring for them and how can she make the decision that somebody else wouldn't be happier dead who has no more quality of life than a fetus? The attempt to argue from human rights will again prove futile. Either you believe that all human life was created by God and derives its value from Him, or everything's relative.
Leila and JoAnna,
ReplyDeleteIn regard to my last comment which I made before my first coffee, what I mean by saying that you are being presumptuous really applies in general to any time a religious person condemns something like abortion or gay marriage on the basis of it being against God's will. That is a reason to which the appropriate response is "who are you to presume that 1. There even is a God, and 2. Assuming that there is, that you know his will?"
That is the real reason that we talk past each other. I will comment further on your new post so as to reduce the number of people getting emails about this.
Fiddlesticks,
ReplyDeleteYou're not talking out of your backside. I accept the argument that you are making. But what I have been trying to convey to you is that there are two guilt trips going on here. The first is the guilt of having used and abandoned an eighteen year old girl who was madly in love with me. The second is having been a party to the abortion of a ten week old fetus. You are making me feel very bad about one, but you are having zero impact upon my feelings in regard to the other. I'm sure that you think that I would benefit from confessing both and praying for forgiveness. What I am telling you is that the only forgiveness I need is from the one I have hurt. The only one I hurt was the woman and her family. I have no need to apologize to anyone else on either account.
I think we had a misunderstanding, Bill. I thought you were saying that you were glad your girlfriend had the option of abortion because you didn't want her or the baby in your life - which seemed kind of callous and selfish and not at all to do with women's rights. Your friend was being a misogynist *bleep* and not a good friend to you. If you already regret listening to him, I'm sorry I made you feel even worse about something you can't change. Perhaps it's not too late, even 40 years later to ask forgiveness? (Not from me, of course, it's none of my business).
DeleteEither you believe that all human life was created by God and derives its value from Him, or everything's relative.
ReplyDeleteExactly. That is the argument behind all the other arguments. It is what happens when an unstoppable force comes in contact with an immovable object. We can save our breath on the other arguments. You have stated it well.
Bill,
ReplyDeleteYou're asking why I have the "right" to try and prevent innocent human children from being deliberately killed? Seriously?
Why do you support the deliberate killing of innocent human children, Bill?
For the umpteenth time, my opposition to abortion is not solely based on religious grounds, and I have not framed my argument against abortion in those terms. Please see http://secularprolife.org.
Why do you support the deliberate killing of innocent human children, Bill?
ReplyDeleteJoAnna,
What I support is the rights of people to make certain decisions for themselves. I will give you some examples: the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, the right to marry a same-sex partner, the right to not be discriminated against, the right to die with dignity, the right to the use of IVF to have a child in the case of infertility, the right to contraception coverage in an employee health plan, etc.
I support these rights. I don't include in these rights the right to live in another person's body from the moment of conception to the moment of birth. That is not a right. It might be seen as a blessing or as an unwanted burden upon a woman who has the rights listed above.
Bill, you keep sidestepping the question. Let me reword it based on your answer. Why do you support the "right" of women to make the decision to have innocent unborn children killed?
ReplyDeleteThat is what abortion is, so that is the "right" you support.
JoAnna,
ReplyDeleteI think that we can both agree that what we are discussing is the matter of conflicting rights. I am representing the rights of the woman who does not want to be pregnant. You are representing what you generally referred to as the "child" which can be anything from a fertilized egg to a fully formed fetus. We differ on whose rights supersede the rights of the other at any given time.
You won't even concede that the woman has a right to take the morning after pill. I won't concede that the fetus has an inherent right to life at any point before it is able to survive on its own. My own personal opinion is that, if the fetus can be delivered by C-section, it should not be legal to kill it. Again, it is my personal opinion that there is a point between those two extremes that we would have to agree that one person's rights supersede the other's. Many times, when the rights of individuals conflict, a compromise can be reached. Otherwise, you go to a judge and let him decide.
Human beings have equal rights, Bill. I'm sorry you do not believe that. Also, I absolutely believe that an innocent human being's right not to be deliberately killed supersedes a woman's alleged right not to be pregnant.
ReplyDeleteAlso, to expand upon my last point, since death is permanent and pregnancy is temporary, I think it is absolutely right and logical that a child's right not to be deliberately killed should supersede that of the woman's alleged right not to be pregnant.
ReplyDeletePsychopaths
ReplyDelete"Our world seems to have been invaded by individuals whose approach to life and love is so drastically different from what has been the established norm for a very long time that we are ill-prepared to deal with their tactics of what Robert Canup calls "plausible lie". […] this philosophy of the "plausible lie" has overtaken the legal and administrative domains of our world, turning them into machines in which human beings with real emotions are destroyed."
[...]
"Psychopaths are notorious for not answering the questions asked them. They will answer something else, or in such a way that the direct question is never addressed. They also phrase things so that some parts of their narratives are difficult to understand. This is not careless speech, of which everyone is guilty at times, but an ongoing indication of the underlying condition in which the organization of mental activity suggests something is wrong. It's not what they say, but how they say it that gives insight into their true nature.
But this raises, again, the question: if their speech is so odd, how come smart people get taken in by them? Why do we fail to pick up the inconsistencies?
Part of the answer is that the oddities are subtle so that our general listening mode will not normally pick them up. […] some of the "skipped" or oddly arranged words, or misused words are automatically reinterpreted by OUR brains in the same way we automatically "fill in the blank" space on a neon sign when one of the letters has gone out. We can be driving down the road at night, and ahead we see M_tel, and we mentally put the "o" in place and read "Motel". Something like this happens between the psychopath and the victim. We fill in the "missing humanness" by filling in the blanks with our own assumptions, based on what WE think and feel and mean. And, in this way, because there are these "blank" spots, we fill them in with what is inside us, and thus we are easily convinced that the psychopath is a great guy - because he is just like us! We have been conditioned to operate on trust, and we always try to give the "benefit of the doubt". So, there are blanks, we "give the benefit of the doubt", and we are thereby hoisted on our own petard.
...
"He (the psychopath) does bizarre and self-destructive things because consequences that would fill the ordinary man with shame, self-loathing, and embarrassment simply do not affect the psychopath at all. What to others would be a disaster is to him merely a fleeting inconvenience."
...
" The psychopath does not think that they have any psychological or emotional problems, and they see no reason to change their behavior to conform to standards with which they do not agree. They are well-satisfied with themselves and their inner landscape. They see nothing wrong with the way they think or act, and they never look back with regret or forward with concern.
Most therapy programs only provide them with new excuses for their behavior as well as new insights into the vulnerabilities of others. Through psychotherapy, they learn new and better ways of manipulating. What they do NOT do is make any effort to change their own views and attitudes."
...
"... in the actual situation of humanity there is nothing that points to evolution proceeding. On the contrary when we compare humanity with a man, we quite clearly see a growth of personality at the cost of essence, that is, a growth of the artificial, the unreal, and what is foreign, at the cost of the natural, the real, and what is one's own.
[…] One thing alone is certain, that man's slavery grows and increases. Man is becoming a willing slave. He no longer needs chains. He begins to grow fond of his slavery, to be proud of it. And this is the most terrible thing that can happen to a man. [Gurdjieff, op. cit]"
Fiddlesticks, your work with those folks… I am so appreciative! God bless you.
ReplyDeleteJoAnna, it appears no matter how many secular arguments you give, Bill will insist you are giving purely religious arguments. Bill is having a conversation with himself.
Well, I did a little bit of paperwork in the office ... the real heroes are the churches and families around the world adopting children from these backgrounds. The things ruthless people do to children are horrific. They'll just kick them in the stomach until they abort. I sometimes wonder how grown men come to sink to such levels.
DeleteAnother continent heard from. So, is this world now being run by psychopaths?
ReplyDeleteBill is having a conversation with himself.
ReplyDeleteIn a way, I am. You people serve as Devil's Advocate presenting arguments against my worldview and my struggle for self-esteem.
Fiddlesticks, can we continue this conversation on the new thread?
"Psychopaths are notorious for not answering the questions asked them. They will answer something else, or in such a way that the direct question is never addressed."
ReplyDeleteExample 1:
"... because answering that question is uh, uh, that's uh, above my pay grade..."
Example 2:
"I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion, given that it'll be debated for centuries yet..."
Example 3:
"... the abortion of a so called "child", which is really only a 10 week old 'fetus'..."
I thought you were saying that you were glad your girlfriend had the option of abortion because you didn't want her or the baby in your life.
ReplyDeleteWell, as bad as I feel about having been that way, I can't honestly say that you were wrong. This is something that might be good to put on my bucket list. To actually obtain forgiveness from the only one who can give it. We'll see. Thank you for your support.