tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post7112589295225663139..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Abortion dialogue: Where Alyssa went wrongLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger163125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-24002332508165074842015-08-23T22:00:32.906-07:002015-08-23T22:00:32.906-07:00CS, good! We agree that people are mistreated and ...CS, good! We agree that people are mistreated and abused when others view them as objects, rather than as human beings. Human beings deserve respect, rights, the protection of the law, correct? They deserve, every one of them, to not be dehumanized. Either by people who are supposed to love and respect them or by the state, which has the obligation to protect all humans. Would you agree? Would you agree that if the state says that one group of humans is not worthy of protection under the law, that it's open season on one group of humans, then we as a society have dehumanized them? We've seen that before, in many nations and eras, of course. <br /><br />So, do you agree that the state itself, the legislatures, the courts, can dehumanize human beings by denying them their basic, natural rights? Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-59431082870427513062015-08-23T21:36:40.044-07:002015-08-23T21:36:40.044-07:00Don't forget that abortion is necessary also b...Don't forget that abortion is necessary also because women are afraid of missing out on seeing what's it like to have sex with multiple men. And apparently it makes sense to not know the men you sleep with. Yup, babies die so that women can have sex with as many men as they want. Margohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456678968658724716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-87293931651359951452015-08-23T21:26:11.115-07:002015-08-23T21:26:11.115-07:00We have gone over this, like CS admits in this com...We have gone over this, like CS admits in this comment. She refutes the logical arguments we have made that show the woman in 99% of pregnancy did in fact give permission for the baby to be there. Her position, as I understand it, is that because SOME men lie, deceive, or simply run away when things are tough, then it is okay for women to have the power to kill the person they gave permission to live in them. Because, she simply says they didn't give permission, based on no logical argument other than men are pieces of crap. That is my summary of CS's position after reading nearly every comment on the last 5 blog posts. jrfjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17348323940587575564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-75067742612567905302015-08-23T19:15:45.136-07:002015-08-23T19:15:45.136-07:00You didn't answer my questions. You dismissed ...You didn't answer my questions. You dismissed them by saying "we'd never do that." How can you predict what will happen in the future?jrfjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17348323940587575564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-27058867429089829382015-08-23T17:57:32.776-07:002015-08-23T17:57:32.776-07:00that question mark after "for nearly everyone...that question mark after "for nearly everyone" should be a period. and probably a hundred other grammatical errors. Jennifer o' Canadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01373929449784790933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-29634251511191640462015-08-23T17:56:15.734-07:002015-08-23T17:56:15.734-07:00Seriously, the major difference between Rwandan an...Seriously, the major difference between Rwandan and Iranian societies and Western ones is their ban on abortion? How about you look at Ireland compared to England where there is a very different set of abortion laws. Oh, you don't have to imagine countries where paid parental leave and pretty much free medical care exists for nearly everyone? Come up to Canada for starters. Some places you can have daycare for $7 a day, funded by the government. We still have a boat load of abortions here. There goes that excuse. Try most of Western Europe, Scandinavia, etc., extensive social safety nets - yet abortion and increasingly euthanasia rates are very high. Jennifer o' Canadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01373929449784790933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-47474974674685776572015-08-23T17:36:42.698-07:002015-08-23T17:36:42.698-07:00CS, I'm struggling, struggling, struggling to ...CS, I'm struggling, struggling, struggling to understand the concept of an unborn child having no "legal right" to live inside his or her mother. "Legal right". Who gives rights? Where do rights come from? A slave did not have "legal right" to do many things. <br /><br />I want you to look at this statement, yet again, from MLK, about how we make our laws, how we determine a just law from an unjust law:<br /><br /><i>"One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all."<br /><br />Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law."</i><br /><br />Now, after reading that, do you believe that making abortion legal was a just law or an unjust law? Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-56520356653931604602015-08-23T17:09:24.816-07:002015-08-23T17:09:24.816-07:00* Anyway* AnywayNubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-58433649370473864672015-08-23T17:09:09.052-07:002015-08-23T17:09:09.052-07:00* abortion is not psychologically beneficial* abortion is not psychologically beneficialNubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-90081242916060966002015-08-23T17:06:36.210-07:002015-08-23T17:06:36.210-07:00You don't "waste your time with analysis&...You don't "waste your time with analysis", that's half your trouble. The other half is that those of us who show you the numbers that pregnancy isn't "scary" or that abortion is psychologically beneficial to the woman afterward get completely ignored.<br /><br />You scramble for your own remedy. Not logic. And not God's law. I thought you were Christian?Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-83706083204018687432015-08-23T17:05:05.110-07:002015-08-23T17:05:05.110-07:00I mean in the same vein you could be aborting the ...<i>I mean in the same vein you could be aborting the next Hitler</i><br /><br />The point is, CS, <i>you don’t know</i>. So until you can prove who you are getting rid of, it’s unjust attack against life. You don’t know who you’re aborting but you at least know the man you’re choosing to sleep with. Even if you only know him a fraction of 100%, you still know him enough to know you want to sleep with him. The baby you do not know at all! <br /><br /><i>Again I assume your talking to women in general and not me individually? But people don’t always know who they are sleeping with, whether they should or not, in reality they don’t</i> <br /><br />I don’t even know what to say to that.<br /><br /><i>I don’t know if you’re talking to me individually or women in general? But there’s nothing glamorous or ideal about aiming to me a single mother. Taking on absurd amounts of responsibility alone isn’t a modern woman’s prerogative </i><br />No one’s talking single mother. You said men weren’t as helpful for childcare, that assumes the man and woman are together. Anywhere, why aren’t you beating the drum of more options=more power? I thought it was more options = more power for the modern woman, so even the single mother thing is supposed to be a nod to independent female strength? I’m so flummoxed.<br /><br />What is your philosophy built on? God or culture? What is your degree in? If you're equipped for the future, good. But that is second to walking in God's ways. Second to fornication as a sin.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-58339471078615978502015-08-23T16:59:17.713-07:002015-08-23T16:59:17.713-07:00And I think it's pretty dishonest to keep pret...And I think it's pretty dishonest to keep pretending...insisting even...that babies are using women's bodies without permission. Aside from the 1% conceived in rape, let's be honest here CS.Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02893951886426781163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-19642420807588318782015-08-23T16:57:00.830-07:002015-08-23T16:57:00.830-07:00“How do you quantify this, CS? Show me data. Show...“How do you quantify this, CS? Show me data. Show me "treated well" with a number assigned to it. “<br /><br />lol here’s a map of where abortion is legal/illegal. I’m not going to waste my time coming up with an analysis of why Rwanda and Iran are worst places to live than the US and Europe for women ( or people in general). How many countries where abortion is illegal do you want to live in, compared to where abortion is legal?<br /><br />CSemily rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02439155728562621382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-82900705109281247452015-08-23T16:45:49.428-07:002015-08-23T16:45:49.428-07:00“Here’s a novel idea: Get a great education to pre...“Here’s a novel idea: Get a great education to prepare yourself to go into a great career so that you don’t have to rely on the cad – for anything! And no children need to die in the process. You can keep the children alive and not rely fully on the man. I thought that’s what modern women were supposed to do - be strong at every angle? “<br /><br />I don’t know if you’re talking to me individually or women in general? But there’s nothing glamorous or ideal about aiming to me a single mother. Taking on absurd amounts of responsibility alone isn’t a modern woman’s prerogative <br /><br /> ”And further, you don’t know who you’re aborting. Could be the next president, the next Einstein, the next great feminist. On the other hand, you know (or you should know) who you’re sleeping with.”<br /><br />I mean in the same vein you could be aborting the next Hitler so that’s point is really moot. Again I assume your talking to women in general and not me individually? But people don’t always know who they are sleeping with, whether they should or not, in reality they don’t <br /><br />CSemily rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02439155728562621382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-32429918907057820612015-08-23T16:39:05.156-07:002015-08-23T16:39:05.156-07:00But yes I think there are a myriad of reasons why ...But yes I think there are a myriad of reasons why abortion should be legal (which doesn’t even mean it should be used) and one of those reasons is birth/childcare fall too heavily on women who may not have supportive partners. <br /><br />“Well back up the bus. This comment tells us that women’s selection of men is pretty poor if she's not being helped out by the guy (the father of her kids) with basics like childcare. “<br /><br />Right, but that’s clearly happening, re the current abortion rate. <br /><br /><br />“And you still endorse abortion because of the potential jerky behavior of some guy. That’s exactly like saying that since the mailman is a jerk and never gives you your mail with a smile that it’s perfectly fitting that you go and beat up orphans or some other vulnerable group.”<br /><br />No I think abortion should be legal fundamentally because no one should have the legal rights to use someones body without their permission, we’ve been over this. I think abortion is used from a common sense standard for a lot of reasons, including the jerkiness of men. <br /><br />And your parallel is completely off. There’s an enormous difference between just going on a killing rampage and not letting someone live in you. It’s a pretty dishonest comparison <br /><br />CSemily rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02439155728562621382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-32296049350232210112015-08-23T16:31:56.465-07:002015-08-23T16:31:56.465-07:00“So, what if the government outlaws abortion, but ...“So, what if the government outlaws abortion, but also implements programs that allow the mother to take 9-24 months off of work and be paid what she needs to pay all living expenses including medical, travel, and all pregnancy related costs as well, plus some miscellaneous extra for her "burden" she has because it isn't "fair" for her. That should compensate for the lack of a "supportive partner" during pregnancy and if she chooses not to raise the child, she can give it to loving adoptive parents since there are millions of them on waiting lists as we speak. She can also have free healthcare at any doctor she chooses for life. If those laws were in place, would it make it easier for you to be in favor of not killing another person? Or would you think you would still support killing a human being at will?” <br /><br />Obviously we’d never do that, lol, but I do think if we want to decrease abortion rates we need to look at practices that support women and motherhood, absolutely. <br /><br />CSemily rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02439155728562621382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-34377357152924641202015-08-23T15:44:57.178-07:002015-08-23T15:44:57.178-07:00where women are treated well
How do you quantify ...<i>where women are treated well</i><br /><br />How do you quantify this, CS?<br />Show me data.<br /><br />Show me "treated well" with a number assigned to it.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-38540936972968527342015-08-23T15:41:04.773-07:002015-08-23T15:41:04.773-07:00But yes I think there are a myriad of reasons why ...<i>But yes I think there are a myriad of reasons why abortion should be legal (which doesn’t even mean it should be used) and one of those reasons is birth/childcare fall too heavily on women who may not have supportive partners. </i><br /><br />Well back up the bus. This comment tells us that women’s selection of men is pretty poor if she's not being helped out by the guy (the father of her kids) with basics like childcare. <br /><br />And if we start chasing all of these instances of these moral scandals (like infidelity) that you keep pointing to as your reason to keep abortion as a remedy, think about what kind of state (police-wise) that puts us in as a country. <br /><br />And you <i>still</i> endorse abortion because of the potential jerky behavior of some guy. That’s exactly like saying that since the mailman is a jerk and never gives you your mail with a smile that it’s perfectly fitting that you go and beat up orphans or some other vulnerable group.<br /><br />You get bullied by A so you want to be sure to take your anger out on B. Not logical. B is not a remedy for A. <br /><br />Here’s a novel idea: Get a great education to prepare yourself to go into a great career so that you don’t have to rely on the cad – for anything! And no children need to die in the process. You can keep the children alive and not rely fully on the man. I thought that’s what modern women were supposed to do - be strong at every angle? <br /><br />And further, you don’t know who you’re aborting. Could be the next president, the next Einstein, the next great feminist. On the other hand, you know (or you should know) who you’re sleeping with. <br /><br />Abortion is not the remedy for jerkiness. The common denominator there is the one making the choice on the man she sleeps with—that’s on the woman.<br />You’re talking micro level choices. Then you point to macro level educational needs of the wider culture. Keep it aboveboard. This culture does not support nor respect life. Maybe make your choices knowing this ahead of time and siphon out the jerks to the best of your sensibilities. <br /><br />And realize that jerkiness will never go away, so we cannot live in that fantasy. You can only increase your chances of finding a good guy if you look in the right circles. Nothing’s bulletproof, but wisdom is there to implement. No innocent party needs to die.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-7282842257724607932015-08-23T14:43:21.327-07:002015-08-23T14:43:21.327-07:00"I mean that I wasn’t addressing abortion at ..."I mean that I wasn’t addressing abortion at that time in that comment. But yes I think there are a myriad of reasons why abortion should be legal (which doesn’t even mean it should be used) and one of those reasons is birth/childcare fall too heavily on women who may not have supportive partners. "<br /><br />So, what if the government outlaws abortion, but also implements programs that allow the mother to take 9-24 months off of work and be paid what she needs to pay all living expenses including medical, travel, and all pregnancy related costs as well, plus some miscellaneous extra for her "burden" she has because it isn't "fair" for her. That should compensate for the lack of a "supportive partner" during pregnancy and if she chooses not to raise the child, she can give it to loving adoptive parents since there are millions of them on waiting lists as we speak. She can also have free healthcare at any doctor she chooses for life. <br /><br />If those laws were in place, would it make it easier for you to be in favor of not killing another person? Or would you think you would still support killing a human being at will?jrfjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17348323940587575564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-2852857255576711592015-08-23T14:31:44.890-07:002015-08-23T14:31:44.890-07:00"Look at a map of places you want to live, yo..."Look at a map of places you want to live, you’ll find that developed nations where women are treated well generally allow abortion. "<br /><br />This equates to the "my friends are all doing it" argument that people, especially kids, say. <br /><br />Here is another popular phrase, "if all your friends jump off a bridge, does that mean you would want to too?"<br /><br />Just because other countries allow something, it doesn't mean it should be allowed there or here. jrfjoshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17348323940587575564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-51474312341648246512015-08-23T14:23:34.912-07:002015-08-23T14:23:34.912-07:00"CS, I have something I think we can agree on..."CS, I have something I think we can agree on. Would you agree that when men treat women badly, and they use women for their own selfish pleasures, or when they beat women, or rape women, or disrespect women.... would you agree that those men have dehumanized women? That they think of them as objects to be used, rather than persons to love? Would you agree that one big factor in the mistreatment of others is their dehumanization in the eyes of the abuser? "<br /><br />Yes Leila, I would cosign that <br />emily rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02439155728562621382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-59998833137399721072015-08-23T14:22:29.302-07:002015-08-23T14:22:29.302-07:00Nubby said "You have tied the two together. Y...Nubby said "You have tied the two together. You say relationships can be bad (men are jerks), therefore, abortion is a must. In fact, you say, abortion is a remedy. That's what you do. You tie the potential behavior of men to the idea that abortion needs to be a constant." <br /><br />Leila said ” Yes, this has been exactly CS's reasoning for years now. It's been a huge part of her support of abortion. I can't figure out why she is separating it out now?”<br /><br />I mean that I wasn’t addressing abortion at that time in that comment. But yes I think there are a myriad of reasons why abortion should be legal (which doesn’t even mean it should be used) and one of those reasons is birth/childcare fall too heavily on women who may not have supportive partners. <br /><br />emily rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02439155728562621382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-7152881798516006162015-08-23T14:16:51.797-07:002015-08-23T14:16:51.797-07:00Hi Margo,
“Men and women should marry based on t...Hi Margo, <br /><br />“Men and women should marry based on true love for each other and then sex becomes symbolic of that love -- it's the act that unites them together as one flesh where they completely give themselves to one another. Thus, they already have love (not lust) for each other and won't be thinking about judging the sexual act or comparing it to previous encounters. For a true married couple, there is no "bad sex"”<br /><br />I don’t disagree that that is what people should do, but it’s generally what they actually do that matters. And when people wait until they get married, we also have a lot of people marrying people they shouln’t marry or marrying too soon to have sex ( but we both agree they shouldn’t do that).<br /><br />Also, there is very very much such a thing as bad sex even within marriage ( read some reddit boards) and we shouldn’t teach people (especially women )otherwise!<br /><br />CSemily rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02439155728562621382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-50961807118368338562015-08-23T14:15:52.238-07:002015-08-23T14:15:52.238-07:00JoAnna
“And you're basing this on.... what, e...JoAnna<br /><br />“And you're basing this on.... what, exactly? Do you know that countries where abortion is illegal have lower maternal mortality rates than the United States? So your opinions is that women are worse off when fewer of them die?”<br /><br />Ok but where are they I in terms of women’s education, rights and overall status? Look at a map of places you want to live, you’ll find that developed nations where women are treated well generally allow abortion. <br /><br />emily rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02439155728562621382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-32082846183222314482015-08-23T02:16:57.427-07:002015-08-23T02:16:57.427-07:00Jfrjosh: that is a fantastic critique. Thank you ...Jfrjosh: that is a fantastic critique. Thank you for sharing that. In response to Emily's comment that we don't raise men to respect women. Yes, you are right. But, I would say we don't raise women to respect men either or anyone to really respect anyone else anymore. Our culture is over-sexualized and over-materialistic and people are viewed as objects and if they get in the way, inconveniencing one's maddening quest for pleasure they are tossed aside. that includes women, and men, and that certainly includes children, both born and unborn. But, the answer is not to kill the ones who are "inconvenient". We need a fundamental overhaul of how we treat people and I think that vehemently protecting life is a pre-requisite for that dignity.... <br /><br />Here is, I think, a beautiful piece written about the problem of porn (but it really ties into any sexual objectification) which truly encapsulates the Catholic truth and vision for what sexuality can and ought to be. I really hope you will read this and understand that this is the heart and this is the love that can rise above the fear. <br /><br />https://nealobstat.wordpress.com/2015/08/22/affair-of-the-mind/<br /><br />God bless you, Emily. Thank you for writing here.Jennifer o' Canadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01373929449784790933noreply@blogger.com