tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post6406333697553106891..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Can non-Catholics be saved?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-73621870588481605232013-09-17T09:16:16.889-07:002013-09-17T09:16:16.889-07:00Bill, not if there's a God. Then every possibi...Bill, not if there's a God. Then every possibility you state falls apart. <br /><br />In an atheist universe? Anything goes, that for sure. Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-63322075470197815342013-09-17T04:02:47.030-07:002013-09-17T04:02:47.030-07:00There is no salvation except through Christ Jesus,...<i>There is no salvation except through Christ Jesus, and it is simply impossible for anyone to get to Heaven without Him.</i><br /><br />But what is possible is to live a good life, die, and simply cease to exist except in the memories of those who knew you and in the pages of history. It is impossible for anyone to get to Heaven with him as well, especially since you can't go anywhere without at least a marginally functioning brain. When you die, your brain no longer functions and, in essence, you do not exist. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976342950011924171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-49571651761132549442012-01-04T09:19:52.656-07:002012-01-04T09:19:52.656-07:00Thanks so much for this helpful post. I remember b...Thanks so much for this helpful post. I remember being at a large Protestant womens' conference several years ago with some other Catholic women. One of the ladies looked around the amphitheater and asked "So are we (Catholics) the only ones here going to Heaven?" To which one of the other Catholics in my company responded "Of course." At the time I was a wavering Catholic myself and didn't know how to respond, but I knew that just seemed wrong!! This post really clarifies the Catholic position.<br />God bless you and thanks for the great blog.Our Familyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02703005828897779835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-21781824861064829622012-01-02T15:56:59.262-07:002012-01-02T15:56:59.262-07:00This is a good post, but the comment section is a ...This is a good post, but the comment section is a bit weak. This is a more precise definition of what Holy Mother Church teaches on salvation (please read all the way to the next heading):<br /><br />http://fisheaters.com/101.html#eens<br /><br />The Baltimore Catechism (#4) also has a good explanation of this doctrine. If you would like, I'll find the relevant text for you.Casey Duprehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08306552818393229488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-19751817957330420042012-01-01T18:42:51.715-07:002012-01-01T18:42:51.715-07:00I have heard on many occasions that the Catholic C...I have heard on many occasions that the Catholic Church is the surest way to heaven. I pray daily for fallen away family members that have apostated themselves and rejected the Truth, which is scary but this post gives me hope. Thanks!Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09136169986057927090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-42587268431000421222011-12-31T00:43:02.352-07:002011-12-31T00:43:02.352-07:00Leila, yes, what you said in answer to my comment ...Leila, yes, what you said in answer to my comment way above does make sense. Thank you. Many of us are praying for the return of friends and family members who have left the Catholic faith.Ruth Ann Pilneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444361367208483037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-27046305941851087952011-12-31T00:04:22.384-07:002011-12-31T00:04:22.384-07:00Tridentine wife, I am sure your hubby answered it ...Tridentine wife, I am sure your hubby answered it sufficiently for you, but if you want me to follow-up, I will! Or, have him write his explanation here for everyone to see. I've missed him (and you)!!!!<br /><br />:)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-47151482433893040232011-12-30T00:29:09.881-07:002011-12-30T00:29:09.881-07:00PS: I know you don't wish to debate, Stacy, an...PS: I know you don't wish to debate, Stacy, and I respect that (you are brave to come to the Bubble and even talk about this stuff, but we love anyone who comes with an open heart and with respect!). However, I want to ask you: If you believed that Jesus <i>did</i> establish and perpetuate a visible Church on earth, would you think it imperative to be a member of that Church?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-30445483507046744972011-12-30T00:24:32.356-07:002011-12-30T00:24:32.356-07:00Stacy, we pretty much agree and that is a wonderfu...Stacy, we pretty much agree and that is a wonderful thing!<br /><br />As for the meaning of "works", that is a whole post in itself, ha ha. What we were freed from by the grace of Jesus was the need to adhere to details of hundreds of points of the Mosaic Law, which could never ultimately save. <br /><br />However, we were never "freed" from the universal moral law (the Ten Commandments), as that is a law of truth and love, an unchanging law that is for our good. So, we obey God out of love (or even out of fear, if our faith is weak and that's where we start out). <br /><br />We Catholics believe that to flaunt the moral law and commit mortal (or "deadly") sin (1 John 5:16) is a way of showing that our hearts are no longer with God. Catholics don't believe in "once saved always saved" because our conversion and relationship with God is always ongoing, daily. He loves us and we love him. However, although he would never reject us, we can certainly choose to reject him, even after our baptism. We don't believe that we lose our free will after we accept Jesus. How we live our lives (our "works") will be judged by the Lord (I think we can agree that that is all over Scripture!). <br /><br />Just doing good works alone will not save anyone, of course. After all, there are evil people who do good works for various reasons and motives. In the same way, faith alone will not save us either, as James makes clear. After all, even the devil knows that Jesus is Lord and acknowledges who He is! Faith without works is dead.<br /><br />Grace alone saves us, though we are justified by our faith <i>and</i> our works, as Scripture says and as the Church has always taught. Grace precedes our faith and grace precedes our works. In fact, grace precedes our next breath. :)<br /><br />I hope that makes sense, and if not, I will try again! It's a big and important topic, obviously. <br /><br />Blessings,<br />LeilaLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-33683154802763095232011-12-30T00:07:52.086-07:002011-12-30T00:07:52.086-07:00Manda, that is a great question for Gwen, and it h...Manda, that is a great question for Gwen, and it harkens me back to this post about how we arrogantly push our contraceptives and sterilizations (even by force and deceit and threat) on the poor people of the developing world:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/06/no-food-or-medicine-but-plenty-of.html<br /><br />Leaves SUCH a bad taste in my mouth. Lord, have mercy.<br /><br />Gwen, is it worse to try to teach people about God through words, or to push them into sterility on the promise of food if they submit? (Or make them barren without their knowledge?)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-57163830256798828662011-12-29T22:33:38.705-07:002011-12-29T22:33:38.705-07:00I believe we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. We ...I believe we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. We enter into relationship with God, by receiving His gift of grace according to Ephesians 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” <br /><br />I also believe that on our journey as a child of God we demonstrate our faith through our works (James 2). <br /><br />In answer to your question, I believe the God of the Bible judges the heart and if someone has never had the opportunity to hear and understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I think they will be accepted with open arms. <br /><br />Just to clarify: when your reference James 2:24 above about being saved by works, do you believe man is saved through works? Or that their faith produces works? <br /><br />JoAnna – My faith isn’t about being a member of a church, it’s about a relationship with the Living God. I don’t believe God will ask me when I meet Him face to face, which denomination or church I was a member of. I believe He will say, “Well done good and faithful servant.”<br /><br />I do not wish to debate, but thank you for the opportunity to discuss!Stacyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361259721430844761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-79574394655961021762011-12-29T20:54:14.981-07:002011-12-29T20:54:14.981-07:00I'm late to the party but I love this post, Le...I'm late to the party but I love this post, Leila! Beautiful and succinct!<br /><br />"What I don't condone is the often misguided "we know better than you" tone that underlies some projects (community health related or spiritual) and neglects or disrespects the validity of different cultural understandings/practices/beliefs. "<br /><br />Gwen, how do you feel about our foreign policy on helping other nations only if they agree to teach "safe sex"? We distribute condoms and artificial contraception to other cultures as if we know better than them...often times their hospitals are full of this stuff and lacking in sanitary conditions or penicillin...Mandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01347616073655350336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-87795303894702116432011-12-29T18:51:41.861-07:002011-12-29T18:51:41.861-07:00Liesl, ha ha! I don't watch the show, but that...Liesl, ha ha! I don't watch the show, but that's funny!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-70986136375736698512011-12-29T18:50:45.054-07:002011-12-29T18:50:45.054-07:00Barbara, good point. I tend to think that fear can...Barbara, good point. I tend to think that fear can lessen culpability. If we fear, then we are not fully consenting to the sin, we just are too scared to do the right thing. (I've always said courage is the most needed virtue these days!). I think pride is the really deadly thing, the "I will not serve" mentality. That's when it gets really dangerous.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-38798501894956168442011-12-29T18:50:39.303-07:002011-12-29T18:50:39.303-07:00When you said "Feeneyism"... I thought i...When you said "Feeneyism"... I thought it might be one of the many wise philosophies spouted by Mr. Feeney from Boy Meets World... alas, it is not!Lieslhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04568652187821916186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-57573470488866553892011-12-29T18:25:42.660-07:002011-12-29T18:25:42.660-07:00And for some people it's not just about wantin...And for some people it's not just about wanting to have things their own way; it's about fear...fear of trusting the Lord with all of us.<br /><br />For a long time I understood the Church's teaching on contraception, but I was afraid to trust the Lord enough to give up all artificial contraception. It took me a few years for my faith to over-ride my fear even though I knew what the right thing to do is.Barbara C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03568254165279635079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-6424876119017590142011-12-29T15:40:33.113-07:002011-12-29T15:40:33.113-07:00In answer to the many questions above, I thought t...In answer to the many questions above, I thought this would be of help, too. So many people hear the truth here or there and then they say, "That makes sense, <i>but</i>…." and then they have an excuse for not following through on what they admit makes sense to them. That could be a way of pushing away actual grace. More on that here:<br /><br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/03/that-makes-sense-but.htmlLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-50227485615232935622011-12-29T15:03:04.372-07:002011-12-29T15:03:04.372-07:00Becky, thank you for that amazing excerpt! That re...Becky, thank you for that amazing excerpt! That really is brilliant. He gets to the heart of it, to the core of our human nature and what we profoundly need.<br /><br />Stacy, welcome and thanks! I love that Scripture, but of course there is soooooooo much more about salvation in the Bible, and we need to take it all in context. For example, the Bible also says that "baptism now saves you". And it says that "not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven". And it says that we "are saved by works and not by faith alone". And so many other things. So, we take it all as a whole, and we understand it all in light of 20 centuries of unbroken Christian Tradition. <br /><br />In your belief system, what happens to those folks of good will who never hear the name of Jesus or get a chance to know the Gospel? Are they bound for hell because of it? Thanks!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-18227208470539109422011-12-29T15:02:55.889-07:002011-12-29T15:02:55.889-07:00Stacy - then the question becomes, "If you de...Stacy - then the question becomes, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead," why aren't you a member of the the church that He established at the very beginning? :)JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-5059469421251415352011-12-29T14:52:14.766-07:002011-12-29T14:52:14.766-07:00I was intrigued by the title of your post and had ...I was intrigued by the title of your post and had to come read :) I haven't been to your blog in months, and since I am not Catholic I was quite curious about what your response would be. But I am a God-fearing, Jesus-loving girl and live my life according to the Word of God. Romans 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. I take these words to heart and believe it is as simple as that...for anyone of any religion. Thank you for creating a place to have important conversations like this one!Stacyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361259721430844761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-51192522605457036702011-12-29T14:21:41.975-07:002011-12-29T14:21:41.975-07:00Leila
I don't know if the diocese is doing thi...Leila<br />I don't know if the diocese is doing this all over the U.S, but I know that at least our diocese is passing this book out at all churches for free: "Rediscover Catholicism" by Matthew Kelly. Have you ever read it? I love it, I'm only on Chapter 2 but it's such and easy read and so clear!<br /><br />Julie's comment about lapsed Catholics made me think of this paragraph that I read (this is regarding the authors view on how many people view Catholics and are angry with them:)<br /><br />"...They are saying, whispering, crying out, "Don't tell me! Show me!" Their plea comes from a longing deep within them and represents their great hunger (to know the truth). They don't want to see another TV Evangelist, or read another book or hear another CD about Christianity, they want the REAL thing. They want to witness someone, anyone--just one will do--living an authentic life, someone whose words are supported by the authority of his or her actions. Someone striving humbly but heroically to live by what is good, true and noble in the midst of--and in spite of--the modern climate.<br /><br />They are not sending us this message merely to sound the childish cry of "Hypocrite!" Rather, theirs is the natural cry, a cry for help. They are saying to us, "Don't tell me--show me!" because they are so hungry for a courageous example of the authentic life. Seeing the conflicts and contradictions of your life and mine, they often cry "Hypocrite!" out of their hurt and anger. They are angry because the disappointment of discovering that we are not living the life we espouse robs them of their own hope to live an authentic life."<br /><br />This quote was longer than intended, but it Julie's question/comment reminded me of how so many people get confused by Catholics. (Not to say that Julie was ever calling us a hypocrite!)<br /><br />Such a good book, I would recommend it to anyone to read.Beckyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451590537173713861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-40381102740652944792011-12-29T12:39:57.460-07:002011-12-29T12:39:57.460-07:00Mary, I don't know if it would be willful rebe...Mary, I don't know if it would be willful rebellion, because I cannot know if the person is seeking truth or merely seeking comfort. Many people choose a church based on the convenience of it, or the fact that it conforms to the person's beliefs! That is not the way we seek God! We seek the Church that teaches truth, and then we conform our lives to it. So, people who seek churches that agree with them are not seeking truth, they are seeking their own will to be confirmed. True faith is going to be HARD. It's going to require sacrifice and obedience. For example, how many folks have left the Church because they "don't like" the hard teachings on say, contraception, divorce, sexual ethics, etc? Many, many have left the Church for those reasons. How will God look on that? I don't know. He reads hearts. Maybe they are fully culpable, maybe only partly culpable.<br /><br />When I was a lapsed Catholic, I was still clued in enough to understand the truth of the moral law. I broke that law with nary a blink. I felt bad about it on some level, and again, I KNEW what I was doing was wrong, but I was not fearing hell. Not too much at least. Would I have gone to hell had I died then? I don't know. I pray that God would have been merciful to my pathetic self.<br /><br />The most interesting "Just Curious" I ran was the one that dealt with that very question. The comments are amazing:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-was-your-excuse.html<br /><br />My excuse was always, "God understands me."<br /><br />heh.<br /><br />heh.<br /><br />Praise God for his patience and mercy!!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-31282955192423763522011-12-29T12:33:04.451-07:002011-12-29T12:33:04.451-07:00Julie, I think your friend is talking about the di...Julie, I think your friend is talking about the dictate that we must always follow our conscience. It is true that we must. However, dissenters take that in the wrong way. They (conveniently) forget the rest of what the Catechism says on that issue:<br /><br /><i>personal conscience "should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church." (Catechism, 2039)</i><br /><br />Now, sincere ignorance is one thing, but then there is willful ignorance:<br /><br />This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin." In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits. (Catechism, 1791)<br /><br />More on conscience and dissent, here:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2010/12/dissenting-catholics-dont-know-squat.html<br /><br />Bottom line is: We cannot know whether someone is acting from good will and a pure heart or not. That is between him and God. We should always assume the good intention, of course.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-2742391718818109812011-12-29T09:39:34.521-07:002011-12-29T09:39:34.521-07:00Whoa, great comments and questions! Thanks, guys! ...Whoa, great comments and questions! Thanks, guys! And, welcome ugagal! So glad you found us! <br /><br />Okay, I have a million responses and angles to what you guys are asking, so I will do this piecemeal. Thanks for patience (all the kids home and want to play).<br /><br />First, to Mary's last point (I will address the first question later), which was:<br /><br /><i>It seems to me that it would be logically impossible to truly understand the idea of baptism and to reject it.</i><br /><br />Well, first I'd say it depends on the disposition of the person's heart. I have known people who want to live just as they wish. Baptism (and thus the obligation to live out the Christian life of grace) requires something. It requires sacrifice and suffering and discomfort and "going where you do not want to go" (as Jesus said to the Apostle John). I have heard with my own ears folks say things like: "If that is what God wants, then I'd rather go to hell than be with Him in Heaven." People say that more commonly than you might think. <br /><br />I am reminded of the story Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus:<br /><br /><i>Luke 16:19-31<br /><br />[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.<br /><br />[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'<br /><br />[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'<br /><br />[27] "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'<br /><br />[29] "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'<br /><br />[30] " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'<br /><br />[31] "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced <b>even if someone rises from the dead.' "</b></i> (emphasis mine)<br /><br />Also, there is the scene in John chapter 6, the Bread of Life discourse. Jesus says again and again and again that we must eat of His Flesh and drink of His Blood, or we will have no life in us. He says it without ambiguity, and he even uses the Greek word for "gnaw" to drive home the point. Well, this great crowd of disciples heard this, and many of them -- even those <i>who had watched him perform miracles!! -- </i> walked away from the Lord and rejected him! Jesus turned to a bewildered Peter and asked, "Will you, too, go away?" Peter said "To whom shall we go Lord? You have the words of eternal life." Some stayed, some left. <br /><br />Sadly, some will not believe, or not follow, no matter how much truth stares them in the face and no matter how much they understand. The disposition of the heart is paramount, truly willing to follow the truth no matter where it leads or what it costs. <br /><br />More in a bit, about the question of Catholics who fall away, or are lukewarm, etc….Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-64558099336001476002011-12-29T09:09:15.444-07:002011-12-29T09:09:15.444-07:00One more thing...recently two of the fallen away C...One more thing...recently two of the fallen away Catholics I speak of have said things about individual thought and action. One of them said this idea is in the Catechism. Because of this she believes she does not have to be a practicing Catholic and pretty much holds protestant beliefs now. Is this true? Is there something in the Catechism that gives Catholics the freedom to become protestant and still have the hope of salvation. To me it sounds more like moral relativism, but I don't know much about apologetics so I thought I would ask you.Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118651816654494082noreply@blogger.com