tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post5814026833198457278..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: The two-child norm is not necessarily the result of selfishnessLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger160125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-70867944082326820162016-03-01T12:03:06.820-07:002016-03-01T12:03:06.820-07:00We upgraded from a 7-passenger minivan to an 8-pas...We upgraded from a 7-passenger minivan to an 8-passenger SUV (Nissan Armada) when we found out baby #6 was on the way. (Sadly, I miscarried so we still have an empty seat.) I'd love a Nissan NV someday, too, though!!JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-23145904396816233912016-03-01T11:41:39.233-07:002016-03-01T11:41:39.233-07:00When we outgrew our 7pass minivan a few years back...When we outgrew our 7pass minivan a few years back we found a used Suburban. We were so lucky that it turned out to be a 9-pass one (middle front seat), when we found out baby #7 was coming. Now I'm just waiting for the day I can get a Nissan NV 3500 Passenger. Seats 12. Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00726068736912870899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-39886470656679852972016-02-29T14:06:31.045-07:002016-02-29T14:06:31.045-07:00See, they're not meeting the need of the cultu...See, they're not meeting the need of the culture based on some idea out there. They're meeting a bottom line number for profit. What you see marketed on tv and billboards (4 door sedans) are orchestrated under heavy marketing strategy because that company needs to sell more of those for the bottom dollar and to meet federal CAFE requirements. That's it. <br /><br />When I see car/truck commercials, I know exactly why they'd be marketing that vehicle the way they do. It just comes from knowing the industry. I mean no disrespect in my comments, it's just that I know the ins and outs of it all.<br /><br />You're seeing the marketing side as a consumer, as someone who buys a product within the culture. I'm seeing the reality of federal mandates and bottom line profit within those commercials.<br /><br />To illustrate further, Ford's bread and butter is their F-series trucks. Always has been, always will be. They have a massive budget for that vehicle line. Always will. Their 4 door car lines could go away tomorrow and they'd be just fine profit-wise, because their $$ is in selling trucks. So, there's no real cultural reflection of selling sedans to 4 person families all connected here. There's just dollar signs for profit. Marketing strategy can drive design to a point, but there are always federal requirements to meet over and above that.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-23941248330201830292016-02-29T12:57:29.799-07:002016-02-29T12:57:29.799-07:00people have families of a certain size, so compani...<i>people have families of a certain size, so companies design products to be most convenient for the typical family, and so then it becomes easiest to have the family size that works for these things. </i><br /><br />But I am saying no to that arrangement. Automotive design was not hatched from an idea top down to reinforce an idea that there ought to be only 2 kids per family and they set up their product to design around that promotion. Not at all. Federal requirements dictate. There is no chicken/egg here. Other models came along to accommodate passenger size, but again, it's not based on a cultural reflection. This is not how business works in design and engineering. It works from an executive budget with executive concepts and designers and engineers work on the programs to bring that into reality. "We want this design." "We can't do that, but we can do this." It's not built around chicken/egg anything.<br /><br /><i>that safety requirements are often written up by the companies that produce goods</i><br /><br />?? No, no, no. Automotive requirements are federally mandated. Federally. All the testing, all the other critical items like budget approvals, engineering/design approvals, tooling changes, manufacturing approvals, PPAP (Production Part Approval Process), assembly builds, those are all both internally and externally mandated. These are all called critical path items to get to deadline (which has its own technical term). There must be engineering sign-off and government compliance approval to sell the first vehicle. There isn't some vague notion of car companies dreaming up design here. You're talking safety and reality of engineering, first.<br /><br /><i> and are very likely to reflect cultural norms. If most americans had 6 kids, you can bet that vehicle body size and carseat capacity would reflect this.</i><br /><br />We <i>do have</i> vehicles to accommodate that. But that's got nothing to do with what drives the reality of the automotive world. Please. I kind of know this area.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-20460236844203830362016-02-29T12:55:57.647-07:002016-02-29T12:55:57.647-07:00Regulation matters a lot. Japan imposes large tax...Regulation matters a lot. Japan imposes large taxes on certain types of vehicles, particularly the larger ones. My sister was stationed there with her husband and four kids, and I remember the thousands of dollars in additional costs involved in owning a minivan. There is a big incentive to walking or owning tiny vehicles there, which undoubtedly contributes to family size challenges in addition to other cultural factors.<br /><br />Available vehicle options will change with country regulations. It is clear that the Japanese and Europeans drive different cars than Americans, vehicles that are often impossible to buy in the U.S. partly due to different regulations among other factors. Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625746219907319100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-86800177359338736102016-02-29T12:47:47.412-07:002016-02-29T12:47:47.412-07:00Munchie Mommy, we went a long time with only one c...Munchie Mommy, we went a long time with only one car (free also), to get my husband to work. We lived in the country, and I stayed home with the kids, homeschooling, with no way to drive anywhere all day. So finally needing a car to accommodate more kids was definitely a change! We now live in the city and walk a lot, but we still need two cars at this point. We do get insurance discounts with low mileage and save money on gas in the city, of course, unless we do a road trip. I think the vehicle conversation was very helpful -- I would never have known about Little Passengers otherwise! :)Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625746219907319100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-82698436518007958242016-02-29T12:47:10.420-07:002016-02-29T12:47:10.420-07:00I would also like to add, regarding Nubby's co...I would also like to add, regarding Nubby's comment about saftey requirements, that safety requirements are often written up by the companies that produce goods and are very likely to reflect cultural norms. If most americans had 6 kids, you can bet that vehicle body size and carseat capacity would reflect this. For an example of how culture determines safety regulations: car safety standards in Japan are required to minimize injuries to pedestrians, should they be hit by the vehicle in question, whereas in America standards are only tailored to the occupants of the vehicle. <br /><br />Ok, now I'm derailing this into a conversation about cars :)Munchie Mommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02235606806806233833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-60708269281733012652016-02-29T12:37:29.532-07:002016-02-29T12:37:29.532-07:00I didn't mean to imply that car sizes and hote...I didn't mean to imply that car sizes and hotel rooms were designed with the intention of punishing larger families. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation ... people have families of a certain size, so companies design products to be most convenient for the typical family, and so then it becomes easiest to have the family size that works for these things. What I meant by structural was simply that many products/systems are built in such a way that they fit the cultural norm but do not easily accomodate those outside it. <br /><br />I also didn't mean to derail this conversation into an evaluation of vehicle options. Our reality was that we were that family that was driving a 16-year old car that we had got for FREE from a family member. And, I will add some shock value by saying that we had 3 kids before we had ANY car at all. Where we were living at the time was really walk-friendly with good public transit, Honestly, having extra kids was cheaper than a car payment, and given the choice, we chose the former :)Munchie Mommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02235606806806233833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-79473511166558808672016-02-29T10:27:34.802-07:002016-02-29T10:27:34.802-07:00I just generally don't see a 20k vehicle as ve...<i>I just generally don't see a 20k vehicle as very affordable -- more of a necessary financial sacrifice at times and often an upgrade for a growing family.</i><br /><br />Right. It's probably not very affordable for a lot of people and this gives me a chance to tie everything we've said here, directly back to Leila's post title and general theme which was: just because people have only two children doesn't automatically make them selfish. People who have only two kids are probably struggling, just like most American families, no matter the amount of kids. <br /><br />It's a larger economic issue, not a selfish personal one. We're all getting gouged as consumers, every which way we turn, even when we minimize our spending, because someone else has us marked for profit. <br /><br />So, it's good that we don't assume anything about anyone's reasons for their family size and just stay out of their business. The problem isn't family size for this reason or that, the problem is that everyone wants to be in everyone else's business and they make rash judgments. Not that you said any of that, Elizabeth, I'm just bundling my final thought here.<br /><br />That's my take, anyway. Now I'm off for real. A dishwasher is waiting to be installed here with my name on it.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-35064256232815424312016-02-29T10:15:19.119-07:002016-02-29T10:15:19.119-07:00That's what *I* meant...sorry for all the typo...That's what *I* meant...sorry for all the typos!Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625746219907319100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-46947274640256761512016-02-29T10:14:32.616-07:002016-02-29T10:14:32.616-07:00^Absolutely. That's what a meant by trade-off...^Absolutely. That's what a meant by trade-offs: To get more space, you have to spend more money, which is a trade-off. Some families might decide they can make-do with the smaller space to save some money, and others will decide their situation needs more space, so they sacrifice the budget a little. For example, we often drive across the country to visit family, so we may worry more about size and comfort than a family that almost never takes big trips. Another example: An older couple with a better idea of the end size of their family might decide they can do with less space than a couple trying to plan for a bunch more kids in the long term. So trade-offs factor into family situations, but they are pretty much always there. I just generally don't see a 20k vehicle as very affordable -- more of a necessary financial sacrifice at times and often an upgrade for a growing family. But those Little Passengers might save some families some financial heartache :)!Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625746219907319100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-76689067439373156862016-02-29T09:53:59.942-07:002016-02-29T09:53:59.942-07:00whereas 3rd-row sedans and SUVs seat seven at best...<i> whereas 3rd-row sedans and SUVs seat seven at best, and forget that when you include car seats, boosters, or even large teenagers. They tend to be smaller seats, and you sacrifice storage space to keep them up. </i><br /><br />I get ya. Unfortunately, we consumers can’t have it both ways. I’m just saying that all vehicles must be designed and engineered to meet all kinds of testing requirements and federal fuel economy requirements. <br /><br />We cannot design an open-type raft of a car safely or strongly enough to accommodate a large family while keeping costs low. <br />(There’s so many tests done for strength of materials alone: compression, tensile, impact, temp performance, strength-to-weight, etc.) <br /><br />You most likely will need to have a bigger SUV of some type. You will have to be ready for that cost because the all-aluminum bodies that are coming out (due to federal regulations!) are costing more to make, yet saving more on the fuel-economy side. We’re getting away from heavy steel, and not all plastics can be designed strongly enough to pass all FMVSS testing (crash, rollover, safety testing). Aluminum can be designed for all of this, but it costs more. <br /><br />So a vehicle for a large family will cost. That’s just economics, sorry to say, I have no easy solution for you. The seating Leila recommends is probably your best bet, but obviously check into the safety, installation, warranty, etc. You'll prob need a full size SUV or passenger van for larger accommodations.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-63645260315227206272016-02-29T09:35:42.873-07:002016-02-29T09:35:42.873-07:00I love that they can be rear-facing, which is supp...I love that they can be rear-facing, which is supposedly safer for any passenger. I would like to see more rear-facing options in vehicles. I especially like some of the high-end minivan options that allow the middle row to be rear-facing so that the kids can play games and face each other. But I can't afford most of those vehicles. Haha!Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625746219907319100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-47410773126092425802016-02-29T09:31:43.856-07:002016-02-29T09:31:43.856-07:00Oh, thank you, Leila! The Little Passenger Seats ...Oh, thank you, Leila! The Little Passenger Seats look like a great option. I've never heard of those!Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625746219907319100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-40216178019660666402016-02-29T09:15:11.368-07:002016-02-29T09:15:11.368-07:00I thought this was interesting:
http://www.pewres...I thought this was interesting:<br /><br />http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/08/ideal-size-of-the-american-family/Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-50592432000610371052016-02-29T09:14:32.293-07:002016-02-29T09:14:32.293-07:00"It's like saying, here's the typical..."It's like saying, here's the typical family size or party size that comes in so we can offer this. But they're not urging a small family."<br /><br />Yes, I agree. The hotels/amusement parks/packages/whatever are simply reflecting what is already our four-person-family reality/norm. If the average American family were four to six kids, let's say (so six to eight family members), we'd likely see a different configuration to get those families to book with them. <br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-78995416356242160602016-02-29T09:13:42.674-07:002016-02-29T09:13:42.674-07:00I know this is a tangential to your point, Nubby, ...I know this is a tangential to your point, Nubby, (and I agree with your point), but I don't find the 3rd row in sedans to be that helpful to larger families. It's nice to have more 3rd-row options out there, but most minivans (with the exception of ours) seat eight, whereas 3rd-row sedans and SUVs seat seven at best, and forget that when you include car seats, boosters, or even large teenagers. They tend to be smaller seats, and you sacrifice storage space to keep them up. They tend to work better when planning to transport extra passengers on occasion. That being said, I'm sure they work just fine for some growing families, it's just that I don't find them to be great alternatives for the minivan. Like any purchase, there are trade-offs, and it is good that we have more options now. <br /><br />Our minivan had the same engine and mostly the same frame as our sedan. So it was only an "upgrade" for space and possibly safety with a few extra airbags depending on the model.<br /><br />Part of the struggle for larger families is that we didn't own cars that cost 20k before needing a larger vehicle. We were straight out of college, driving our tin cans. Many of us owned sedans that cost 3k or 5k used, 10k new, at most, and now we suddenly have to find a larger vehicle and, hopefully, a safer vehicle. So, yes, theoretically, if your budget is 20k for a sedan, there are plenty of larger options in that price range without upgrading. If you are young, still driving around that old college car, and now you need a vehicle in the 20k range because your family is growing, that is an upgrade. I guess most of my friends fell more into that category. Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625746219907319100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-39900996151422545342016-02-29T09:00:22.100-07:002016-02-29T09:00:22.100-07:00But the package of tickets isn't driving the i...But the package of tickets isn't driving the idea that we need to be only a family of 4. It's just reacting to demographics in sales based off surveys. It's like saying, here's the typical family size or party size that comes in so we can offer this. But they're not urging a small family. Just like car companies aren't. That was my only point. The 4 people 2 double beds accommodations aren't because of a preconceived family size they're promoting. The hotel was designed for maximum capacity meeting requirements for fire and safety and for whatever design allows them to make the most money. Designing bigger rooms at higher cost probably won't book as fast or fill as much. It's more than a cultural persuasion is my point.<br /><br />Have a good day all.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-36698007274916207262016-02-29T08:53:52.344-07:002016-02-29T08:53:52.344-07:00Elizabeth, this!! It's Little Passenger Seats ...Elizabeth, this!! It's Little Passenger Seats and they are awesome!!<br /><br />http://www.littlepassengerseats.comLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-71448210202324080422016-02-29T08:52:26.846-07:002016-02-29T08:52:26.846-07:00The car thing never was an issue for us. Everyone ...The car thing never was an issue for us. Everyone here has seven-seaters anyway, even those with two kids, because they haul around other friends or going on outings or whatnot. We fitted our old Suburban with those federally-approved (bolted down) Little Seats or whatever they are called and it worked well. Lots of my friends get the 12- or 15-seater passenger vans, but we strategically avoided that!! I always wanted to be able to fit in our garage and any parking garage. But the reflexive "... for a family of four!" that is included in every vacation package or promotion for anything is glaring. We are fitted up to be a family of four in America, and that's obvious. But again, I am not a victim. I feel blessed every day to have broken out of the mold that I thought I had to stay in! Praise God!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-46717020556880393522016-02-29T08:35:54.750-07:002016-02-29T08:35:54.750-07:00*you're looking at a mid-20's price range ...*you're looking at a mid-20's price range (20k) no matter which modelNubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-60246809843946371102016-02-29T08:33:13.006-07:002016-02-29T08:33:13.006-07:00There are many options with 3rd row seating and th...There are many options with 3rd row seating and the options available are actually terrific nowadays, you’re looking a mid-20’s in price, no which model, it seems. The idea of upgrading is technically only upgrading when you leave a certain body style and enter into more options. That's only why I said sedan to mini-van isn't really an upgrade. Some are built on the same platforms.<br /><br />The mini-van market is actually shrinking. It's all economy-based. If gas prices are high, people want to drive smaller more fuel-efficient cars. <br /><br />Most vehicles are now being designed and manufactured with aluminum bodies/body parts because it shaves off literally hundreds of pounds from the vehicle weight and therefore, are more fuel efficient. It just costs a lot to design and engineer aluminum changes because it's difficult to design strength into aluminum (you have to corrugate it, groove it) depending on the function of the part and part placement. You need a company with a huge budget to allow for that. You also have to pass all the testing requirements. <br /><br />It’s not driven by a cultural norm idea. It's driven by requirements, like I mentioned. Vehicle sales is all based on CAFE requirements, which are fuel economy requirements. Fleets need to meet an average of certain miles to the gallon; so if a company sells more gas guzzlers, then they need to sell more fuel economy sized cars to off-set that and meet their federal average standard.<br /><br />That’s the only rationale I wanted to bring into the idea. And as far as vacation resort tickets being for 4-people, they’re just reacting to what is out there. They’re not driving any idea. I mean, what number should they assign to their package? It’s just relative to what their read is.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-89961403250361744232016-02-29T08:11:14.144-07:002016-02-29T08:11:14.144-07:00^We bought a minivan on Craigslist, and there were...^We bought a minivan on Craigslist, and there were many minivans for only a few thousand, similar in age and mileage to sedans. We had to go through the hassle of getting rid of our sedan and switching to a minivan at our third child, but it wasn't a big financial change except that the gas mileage was a tad lower.<br /><br />Now that we have four kids, we are struggling to figure out how to switch to a larger vehicle should we have more. We'll figure it out eventually, but jumping to five or six kids does require vehicle "upgrades", with far fewer options. Our minivan only seats seven, and the car seats reduce that. And, as the big kids get bigger, we need a little more room, especially for long-distance travel. <br /><br />But, yeah, I'm with you Nubby -- cars and car seat have so many other considerations that it's hard to make the connection with social norms other than the reality of demand. I am actually happy to see relatively affordable, safe, and comfortable vans increase in availability and popularity in recent years, like the Nissan NV.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03625746219907319100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-18064013773929017012016-02-29T06:05:31.081-07:002016-02-29T06:05:31.081-07:00It's funny how nobody has mentioned so far how...<i>It's funny how nobody has mentioned so far how society is currently systematically structured around the assumption of a 2-kid family. For example, that's how many car seats fit easily in the back of a sedan,</i><br /><br />Hold on, though. Car manufacturing is reflective of federal design/engineering requirements and economic factors for a particular body style, not of any family demographics driver. Sedans came into existence on a massive scale roughly a hundred years ago. It’s called a sedan because it’s a completely enclosed body and engine based on a,b,c pillars in design, that was unique among designs of the time. That particular body design is what became produced on a mass scale in a post-war era. Its design is not an indicator that the car companies think we should only be having 2 kids.<br /><br /><i>but the 4th cost us several thousand dollars because we had to upgrade to a minivan</i><br /><br />A mini-van shouldn’t be much more than a sedan as far as market value, since mini-vans are not considered an upgrade (not luxury, sport-utility, etc.). Sedans also offer 3rd row seating and start at a base of around $20,000 which is less than a mini-van with the same seating option. So it’s not really considered an upgrade to go to mini-van, and there are 3rd row seating options in sedans out there that actually are affordable comparatively speaking.<br /><br />I see what your point is, but it’s not really accurate to say that car design is reflective of some cultural idea that “2 kids should the standard, and therefore, we are going to design around that”. No, the design idea comes down from the executives (multi-million-dollar budget) who have a concept in mind to make $$$ for the company; and the program designers/engineers make that come into a reality, within the budget, for the bottom dollar, that’s all.<br /><br />I can’t speak to the reality of the family passes at vacation resorts, but automotive design and manufacturing is completely apart from any cultural shove toward only having two kids. Look at the staggering options in vehicles nowadays. They’re not going to limit their product design when they’re all about making bank $$$.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-52084975613646939502016-02-28T22:51:24.374-07:002016-02-28T22:51:24.374-07:00Munchie Mommy, absolutely true! Just another indic...Munchie Mommy, absolutely true! Just another indicator that having more than two kids is really "just not done" in society. That message is engrained, it's the air we breathe, and we don't even notice it until or unless we have a large family. I grew up in a family of four. We fit neatly into everything society had for us. It never even occurred to me that larger families had to struggle to make things work, especially in taking a vacation (except for camping, and my husband and I are NOT campers!) Now, I don't expect the culture to cater to me and I don't feel like a victim at all, but it is surely interesting! :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.com