tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post5245535995645585925..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: The Pope and Condoms *UPDATED*Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-22574503362667290892010-12-03T10:28:34.380-07:002010-12-03T10:28:34.380-07:00Mai, let me clarify again (forgive my constant str...Mai, let me clarify again (forgive my constant stream of thought!). I said that "I don't see it" when I went and re-read Fr. Fessio to look for your point. What I meant was, "I don't see where the Pope 'justifies' condom use under some circumstances." (In the same way I wouldn't say he "justifies" the use of padded pipes for muggings or clean needles for shooting up.)<br /><br />I do see that you and others might see that he is saying some condom use is justified.<br /><br />I can see that. <br /><br />I think it may be our mindsets that make us see it differently. Here's how:<br /><br />You see that condom use is good and responsible. The Pope saying something like he did makes it look like he is "waking up" to that. That he taking a baby step towards the truth.<br /><br />I see it (and I think the Pope is saying) that the "baby step" has nothing to do with the condom use, but has to do with a step towards concern about the other. An awakening of conscience. And, that first step is not "toward better, more consistent condom use" but in fact "away from illicit sex and condom use altogether". <br /><br />Does that make sense?<br /><br />Our last, great pope, JPII was a profound philosopher. Our current wonderful pope, Benedict, is a brilliant theologian. It makes their discussions and interviews and writings so very interesting, but there are the obvious pitfalls in throwing it all out there to the world. :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-46750806557484401272010-12-03T10:05:51.282-07:002010-12-03T10:05:51.282-07:00Mai, you may find this post especially thought-pro...Mai, you may find this post especially thought-provoking. From Fr. John Muir:<br /><br />http://undoingthefall.blogspot.com/2010/11/sex-and-seismic-shift-how-badly-we-all.htmlLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-13335849535428510952010-12-03T10:04:23.464-07:002010-12-03T10:04:23.464-07:00Thanks, Mai, for your position on love. I happen t...Thanks, Mai, for your position on love. I happen to agree that one <i>chooses</i> to love a particular spouse, and that there are a lot of men who could make a woman happy. I don't believe in "the one" that has been planned by God for all time, but that is another post. :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-78456977513400576802010-12-03T10:02:26.704-07:002010-12-03T10:02:26.704-07:00Mai, I re-read Fr. Fessio's article twice to s...Mai, I re-read Fr. Fessio's article twice to see your points. I don't see it. I think the analogy of the padded pipe is clear. Is it justified to used a padded pipe to mug someone? No. But could it be a first step toward something better. As I said, even in a moral hell, there can be a step toward love. It's a disposition of the heart.<br /><br />As for conservative Catholics disagreeing with the Pope.... that happens all the time. I am not sure of your point? I am sure if I sat down and had a long conversation with any of the Popes, I would disagree with some of what they say. <br /><br />The Pope has not changed the Church's teaching (he did not and he cannot). And in addition to that, an interview does not constitute a teaching of the Magisterium. You may not like that or understand it, but it's true.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-3567810183907597612010-12-03T05:04:09.976-07:002010-12-03T05:04:09.976-07:00Ok, I read through the Fessio commentary this morn...Ok, I read through the Fessio commentary this morning. <br /><br />First, Fessio says: "Did the Pope “justify” condom use in some circumstances? No."<br /> <br />The pope says: "There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization ..." with the exception that and if only when and etc etc<br /><br />And after many paragraphs of explanation, Fessio concludes that "In sum, the Pope did not “justify” condom use in any circumstances." So, never is it ok to use a condom. <br /><br />First of all, we know the Vatican has confirmed that we are not only talking about men here. Secondly, "There may be a basis in the case of some individuals ... where this can be a first step ..." Really? He's turning that around and saying condom use is never justified? <br /><br />Sure, certain individuals who are sinning anyway. It's only to protect against HIV transmission. Whatever. But there may be a basis where this can be a first step - that's "justification in some cases". I think that the conservative catholics are being too hard on the mainstream media.<br /><br />I also think that the conservative catholics, with this elaborate explanation of what the pope DIDN'T say, are actually disagreeing with the pope. Which is interesting.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-11702894087008269332010-12-03T04:44:40.656-07:002010-12-03T04:44:40.656-07:00about the comment that Mrs M said that love is abo...about the comment that Mrs M said that love is about getting, and if she doesn't get a certain feeling, she will leave, and so will he.<br /><br />My husband and I have no such agreements. He's been through a divorce already, and it was painful for all involved. Neither of us are planning anything of the sort. I personally don't feel that love is only a getting thing - it's a feeling certainly, but the decision part of it is very big for me. I'm attracted to him, certainly, he makes me happy, but there are a lot of men who could do that. This one I decided to stick with.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-56634274298891067842010-12-02T16:16:42.476-07:002010-12-02T16:16:42.476-07:00Anonymous, ha! :)
No, I'm not implying that....Anonymous, ha! :)<br /><br />No, I'm not implying that. I'm giving my own experiences of life before I knew, understood and lived Church teaching, and after. I have heard the same from others who have lived "both ways". When you use anything the way it was designed, it's always better ... mind, body, soul. ;)<br /><br />By the way, there are many non-Catholic Christians who reject sterilized and contracepted sex. So, it's not merely a Catholic thing.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-90638047261057730502010-12-02T16:12:54.948-07:002010-12-02T16:12:54.948-07:00Just one last question here... What is the secular...Just one last question here... What is the secular way and what is the Catholic way? Is it a position or something? LOL!<br /><br />But really, I hope you aren't implying that non-Catholics cannot have amazing, giving, loving, sacred sexual experiences.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-41572621038351519892010-12-02T16:03:54.398-07:002010-12-02T16:03:54.398-07:00Anonymous, thank you! I think that's great adv...Anonymous, thank you! I think that's great advice, and I have sent it on to my daughter. :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-29985767600317152242010-12-02T14:00:18.124-07:002010-12-02T14:00:18.124-07:00I don't think the smell of one's breath is...I don't think the smell of one's breath is inherent to the nature of the sex act.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-70292649334430674802010-12-02T13:39:54.600-07:002010-12-02T13:39:54.600-07:00Mai - I have three kids right now (5, 2, and 9 mon...Mai - I have three kids right now (5, 2, and 9 months) so I can empathize! <br /><br />I agree that pleasure is an important part of the marital act. The problem is, it's not the PURPOSE of the marital act, in Catholic theology. Here's another excerpt from "<a href="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html" rel="nofollow">Contraception: Why Not?</a>" that explains that concept:<br /><br /><i>So, our society has this view that these three things -- sex, babies, and bonding, are separate and the Church says, "No, they're together." Now some people want to say, "Well, no, no, no. You've left something out here. Clearly, sex is for pleasure. And those who are having sex, they're doing what sex is for; they're having pleasure." And I'll say, "No, no, no. You've missed the point." There are lots of things that have pleasure attached to them. Pleasure is not the purpose; pleasure is the motive; pleasure is the consequence; but it's not the purpose. As a matter of fact, God attached pleasure to the things that he really wants us to do, that are necessary for our survival and for our happiness. So, it's pleasurable to eat and it's pleasurable to drink and it's pleasurable to sleep and it's pleasurable to exercise, and it's pleasurable to have sexual intercourse. It's pleasurable. That's not the purpose. That's not the reason we eat though some of us do. That's not the reason we sleep though some of us do. That's not the real purpose for these acts. They're restorative in many ways. They're necessary for our survival. So, God attached pleasure to everything he wanted us to do for, not our salvation, so much, as just our well-being. But we have to do it at the right time, and the right place, and in the right manner, with the right person, etc., etc. -- in the right way. Sure, eating is pleasurable, but there are limits to what you should be eating. Sexual intercourse is pleasurable, but there are limits to what you should be doing, and you have to seek that pleasure in accord with the nature and reality of what you're dealing with.</i> <br /><br />As for smelly breath, I tend to agree. :) However, if my husband had a medical condition that caused chronic and incurable halitosis, no matter what he did, I'd love him in spite of it and wouldn't insist that he duct-tape his mouth shut every time we made love.JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-48484201730364384092010-12-02T13:38:45.778-07:002010-12-02T13:38:45.778-07:00Mai,
Mrs. M was quite honest when she said that ...Mai, <br /><br />Mrs. M was quite honest when she said that love (in her view) is about a feeling she gets. She said love is about getting rather than giving. She said once she doesn't get a certain feeling from her husband anymore, she will leave him. And vice versa for him. That is their agreement. Do you feel the same?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-49712226935556430422010-12-02T13:36:32.461-07:002010-12-02T13:36:32.461-07:00Mai, We Catholics love sex, too. Don't you wor...Mai, We Catholics love sex, too. Don't you worry about that. ;)<br /><br />Maybe TMI, but I've done sex the secular way and the Catholic way.... I won't go back to the secular way, because there is no comparison. ;)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-92218791397789586162010-12-02T13:18:55.538-07:002010-12-02T13:18:55.538-07:00*oops - I read Leila's daughter's blog pos...*oops - I read Leila's daughter's blog post ...MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-52951094241397776902010-12-02T13:18:00.680-07:002010-12-02T13:18:00.680-07:00JoAnna - I actually think that pleasure is a very ...JoAnna - I actually think that pleasure is a very important part of the marital act. Speaking of Leila's daughter and her pleasure post, I've been meaning to put a longer post on my own blog about this but I just never get to it at night (32 weeks pregnant with a toddler at home and all). <br /><br />The short version is, I heard a radio show about how technology is causing us to become more distracted. BUT, he didn't say that technology is bad - there are enormous good things that come from technology. He compared technology to food. You need food to live, but too much of it and too much of the wrong thing in both cases (food and technology) are bad. <br /><br />Everything in moderation. <br /><br />I put pleasure in the same category. I read Leila's blog post and thought, well, uh, I like pleasure. I seek pleasure, yep. I don't think that makes me an immature selfish girl. Certainly we all know that my life is not ONLY dedicated to pleasure. Too much pleasure, or only pleasure, is certainly not good, but with the right amount of pleasure in one's life, life can certainly be ... pleasant.<br /><br />So I disagree with the statement that the marital act is only self-giving. <br /><br />Oh, and by the way? If my husband hasn't brushed his teeth in more than 24 hours, I ask him to please do so before he makes love to me. Smelly breath has no place in our sexual act.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-32804060952826287732010-12-02T12:46:30.624-07:002010-12-02T12:46:30.624-07:00Off topic, but... I read your daughter's blog ...Off topic, but... I read your daughter's blog post titled "Lately I've been struggling" which brings up the question, "How do I evangelize/tell people my beliefs without being offensive?"<br /><br />Maybe if someone asked her about the living in sin question, she could say something like, "Well - you know me. I am Catholic, so when I get engaged I can't/won't live with him until we are married." And smile. If pressed as to why, say "Catholics believe that marriage is a holy sacrament, etc..." <br /><br />There is no need to say "Because living together is sinful" when your friend just said her parents lived together for 2 years prior to their long and happy marriage. <br /><br />Just remember that as long as you keep the conversation about what YOU do/would hypothetically do instead of condemning the specific act, you can't be offensive (or if someone gets offended, it's not your fault). You are just telling people your opinion. <br /><br />Just remember you & your friends are very young and have no experience (yet) in these matters anyhow. As you live your life, the answers and nuance of experience will become clear. And though you may not agree with how other people live, you'll learn to understand why they do what they do. (hopefully)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-63266080624035451822010-12-02T11:23:52.913-07:002010-12-02T11:23:52.913-07:00Mai,
This is an excerpt from Dr. Janet Smith'...Mai,<br /><br />This is an excerpt from Dr. Janet Smith's "Contraception: Why Not?" that I linked above. It may help you understand why we feel the way we do re: condoms.<br /><br />Pope John Paul II has very profound and beautiful things to say about the meaning of sexual intercourse and I can only give you the briefest of descriptions of it here. He says that the sexual act was meant to be an act of total self-giving. You want to give everything you've got to someone you love. And when you're withholding your fertility, you're withholding something that belongs in the sexual act, something that actually belongs there. To withhold it means that you're not giving of yourself completely. I heard someone compare contraceptives to someone who says, "You know, you're having a bad hair day. Would you mind putting a paper bag over your head? You know, I want to make love to you, but I can't stand looking at that hair. It's driving me crazy." That's what a condom is and that's what a contraceptive is. It says, "I love you but I don't want a very important part of yourself here, something that actually belongs in this act."JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-25409184616701256082010-12-02T08:43:45.870-07:002010-12-02T08:43:45.870-07:00Mai, yes, I think I see what you are saying. For e...Mai, yes, I think I see what you are saying. For example, "Keeping holy the Sabbath" is a Truth, and we Catholics are bound (by discipline) to go to Mass on Sundays. However, the condom issue is different, and I will explain why when I can. I am out the door today, and I am not sure when I'll be back.<br /><br />(I do know that you are not going to be convinced, but by now we both understand that that's not the point of this dialogue. Remember, "I prefer clarity to agreement." I don't expect us to agree. I do expect that we can be crystal clear about our positions so that people can see exactly where we stand.)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-65346464173379363402010-12-02T08:33:45.397-07:002010-12-02T08:33:45.397-07:00Also, my point of view on the collecting semen iss...Also, my point of view on the collecting semen issue is that my husband is helping us both to make a baby, which is what we both want. We are married, we love each other, we are working toward this desired goal together. We are in fact strengthening our marriage and our love by having him do this. For most people who are in an infertile situation, the marital act doesn't produce anything anyway. <br /><br />I know perfectly well that none of you agree with that, based on the IVF wars that brought me into this blog in the first place. Argue away if you like, I'm just putting my opinion out there so that everyone knows what my opinion is.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-74113162527266947592010-12-02T08:27:09.371-07:002010-12-02T08:27:09.371-07:00Yes - I think I'm trying to get the point acro...Yes - I think I'm trying to get the point across that I do get your point. I'm not confused, and I understand that from your point of view it is about the integrity of the marital act. I'm following the logic that you use. I don't think that further explanations by any of you will convince me that this is not casuistry (I can submit semen for analysis as long as I use this poked condom). <br /><br />I haven't read up on Jewish Law, but my impression is: there is an ultimate truth from which all of these laws are derived. Ultimate truth: rest on the sabbath. Derives down to, after many iterations, "use a sabbath elevator". Same with this situation - Ultimate truth: sex is about procreation, derives down to "poke a hole in a condom in order to give a semen analysis". If Rest on the Sabbath and Sex is for Procreation are ultimately different things, please let me know. Of course when I have some time I'll go look into what Jewish Moral Law. Or just ask a few of my coworkers.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-12242266284002440552010-12-02T07:58:11.808-07:002010-12-02T07:58:11.808-07:00Mai, with the condoms and the holes, it's abou...Mai, with the condoms and the holes, it's about keeping intact the integrity of the marital act. I am going to ask for your patience here, because I have not yet done a post on contraception and Church teaching (and Natural Law). So, please just hang tight and I will get to that just as soon as I can.<br /><br />As for other religions' "truths".... I think you are talking about other religions' "disciplines" and "laws" (we Catholics have them, too). And yes, I think they are important for adherents to those faiths. But I am Catholic, and I only follow the "disciplines" of Catholicism. No one else is bound by Catholic disciplines. <br /><br />Again, I think you are confusing disciplines (binding rules and regulations) and doctrines (Truth).Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-7587294555548467142010-12-02T07:41:18.748-07:002010-12-02T07:41:18.748-07:00MaiZeke,
I understand why not wanting to use co...MaiZeke, <br /><br />I understand why not wanting to use condoms seems confusing. It's both a small distinction and it's everything.<br /><br />Most fundamentally a marriage is built on trust and absolute trust in a spouse and God requires one not to put trust in latex at that most intimate moment between two people. That moment is founded on prior communication and knowledge of each other in a million different ways. A couple knows prior something of the chances of conceiving and accepts that ultimately children are not really objects to be planned. They are gifts to be born of love.<br /><br />The issue with all the focus on condoms is that it takes the focus off of where it really should be in a marriage. I like the idea of elevating the most intimate act to the highest level of trust and communication too. It goes together and how beautiful it is when a child's life starts out that way.<br /><br />That's my take on it from trying to reason through the contraception issue. It makes sense to me. I don't think I could legitimately "insist on the value of the child in society" (from your Times piece) if I didn't live it in my own life too.<br /><br />StacyStacy Trasancoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14638075878905614981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-14413987444235711202010-12-02T05:09:21.647-07:002010-12-02T05:09:21.647-07:00Yes, and there is nothing WRONG with the sabbath e...Yes, and there is nothing WRONG with the sabbath elevator running all day long. People aren't WORKING on the sabbath. I'm just saying, from an outsider point of view, both of these types of things seem like such mental gymnastics to get around being able to do something that is inherently wrong. Casuistry.<br /><br />I had actually read that before, in those IVF debates that brought me here, that it is "OK" to use a condom to collect semen for analysis purposes as long as you poke a hole in it. Seriously? That is just as gymnastic-like as putting potted plants in the ground so that you don't violate the fallow year.<br /><br />What is so incredibly disturbing to me about semen collecting with a poked condom is that this group has very vehemently abused people whose husbands masturbate into a cup for such analysis. I can see how you think these two things are incredibly different, but people who have not been indoctrinated into the catholic culture simply roll their eyes at such a minor distinction. Even many who have been indoctrinated but are thinking rationally generally roll their eyes (you call them "Cafeteria Catholics" I think.)<br /><br />From the 'lamestream media', an article from Ross Douthat http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/condoms-catholicism-and-casuistry/. He says: The natural law permits me to rigorously chart my temperature and/or measure my cervical mucus every day in an effort to avoid conception, but it doesn’t permit me to use a condom? Really?<br /><br />And, Leila, are you dismissing the fallow year as not as "important" as your Catholic truths? Is it that you think that no other religion's truths are as important as yours?MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-45108163890438491802010-12-01T18:35:49.704-07:002010-12-01T18:35:49.704-07:00Oh, thank you so much Leila! A kind of funny, but...Oh, thank you so much Leila! A kind of funny, but not really, story this week. Someone not Catholic who has been concerned because we have so many kids (#7 next coming out next month) let me know that she and her husband heard it on the news that the Pope said I could use condoms now. :-(<br /><br />I just love your blog and your writing.Stacyhttp://www.acceptingabundance.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-27394335150540795942010-12-01T16:36:15.796-07:002010-12-01T16:36:15.796-07:00Love the Thigpen quote!Love the Thigpen quote!...https://www.blogger.com/profile/09490440266637782466noreply@blogger.com