tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post3563544680342781308..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: No food or medicine, but plenty of contraception and coercion.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger474125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-88260228042941016652011-06-20T18:52:24.678-07:002011-06-20T18:52:24.678-07:00Michelle,
I know you're not totally decided ...<b> Michelle, </b><br /><br />I know you're not totally decided on the free will thing. Just consider the fact you're questioning free will. If everything really is determined by matter or otherwise, those feelings of wonder and question, and or doubt, what could be the purpose of those feelings from a determinist viewpoint? You could say "we don't know right now, though we may in the future." Well, then who chooses to pursue the answer to such things?Giuseppe Ambrosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15825109896111176650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-48354401190229250462011-06-20T16:02:52.354-07:002011-06-20T16:02:52.354-07:00Bethany, exactly! Thanks!Bethany, exactly! Thanks!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-41388764711813526682011-06-20T11:58:30.596-07:002011-06-20T11:58:30.596-07:00Leila said: Good doesn't need evil to exist. G...Leila said: <i>Good doesn't need evil to exist. Goodness stands on its own. By contrast, evil could not "exist" without goodness.</i><br /> <br />This is a great point and one that I think may be part of the heart of why there is a misunderstanding. Evil is simply the absence of a good, just as the color black in the light spectrum is not actually a color but rather the absence of light. <br /><br />I know most of us have seen it before, but I LOVE this...<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldHF6PFUukwBethanyhttp://www.innocenceexperience.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-27914799915005256902011-06-19T20:55:03.985-07:002011-06-19T20:55:03.985-07:00Mary, don't worry… I read so fast sometimes th...Mary, don't worry… I read so fast sometimes that I have egg on my face when I have totally missed someone's point or misread something, ha! <br /><br />As to your other point, about deprivation… yes! It's true. And that is what this broken world, and sin, has given us. Injustice is a privation of justice. Indifference or hatred is a privation of love, lies are a privation of truth, moral evil is really just a privation of moral goodness. The Fall facilitated these privations. <br /><br />The "loss" of being apart from someone you love is so painful, as you describe. And it's the condition here on earth, as we are separated from God, our Beloved. And the dirtiness followed by the cleansing, awesome shower, can be a way of looking at Purgatory, by the way. Oh, how our souls crave purgatory!<br /><br />The bottom line for Christians is that these privations were not necessary for life and love. They are here only because of sin, and a lack of goodness. But that doesn't mean that the goodness, the fullness, could not and should not stand on its own. <i>Good doesn't need evil to exist.</i> Goodness stands on its own. By contrast, evil could not "exist" without goodness.<br /><br />Heaven will be the fullness of all the good, with no privations. And it can stand alone very nicely, with untold joy, love, peace and fulfillment. Perfection isn't boring, it's exquisite and unending delight, and the reveling in the Truth, Goodness and Beauty, which is the Heart of the Trinity. And the exploration of all of it, including creation, for eternity (talk about the excitement of scientific discovery! You'll never tire of learning more about creation). Anyway, that's how things were *supposed* to be. Not full of sin and dirt and privation. <br /><br />And our souls and bodies will be quite happy to be there. :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-10103184014547505032011-06-19T20:16:12.699-07:002011-06-19T20:16:12.699-07:00Leila,
Sorry, I reread the comments and realize t...Leila,<br /><br />Sorry, I reread the comments and realize that you already answered my question. You agreed that S.S. had worked in the past to pull people out of poverty. "Mary, you are right," sorry...sometimes I read too fast!!!Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-90089815551847822432011-06-19T20:13:02.588-07:002011-06-19T20:13:02.588-07:00Michelle and Leila,
Leila said,
" Do you th...Michelle and Leila,<br /> Leila said, <br />" Do you think, then, that a child cannot know and understand a mother's love unless that child also feels what it is like to be hated, beaten, neglected, left lonely and defeated? And then, should we be looking to give a person both experiences, so that they can get the "full understanding" of love"<br /><br />Good question, and I think it requires a complex answer. <br /><br />I know my children know I love them very much, but I don't think they understand the depth of that love, nor will they, until they grow up and learn about (or perhaps experience) pain and loss. So really, I think suffering, or even just witnessing or learning about it, deepens your love for your loved ones in a way that nothing else can. <br /><br />My love for my mother was deepened when I was separated from her for only two weeks when I was about 11. I remember the beauty of our reunion, and how I held her with a stronger hug after missing her...I had never been without her before, and it made me understand my need so much more. (this is but one example of many).<br /><br />To me...this is one of the central mysteries of life. How it often takes deprivation of love or comfort to help us fully understand what we have (or had). <br /><br />Another simple example: I once hiked 24 days without a shower. The shower I had after completion of the trek...though utterly substandard by American showering expectations, was an experience like no other. I cherished every hot drop of water, and felt like I had been reborn into the skin of an angel. Indeed, the deprivation informed my experience as nothing else could have. The only problem is....the effect wears off. I easily take showers for granted these days.Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-81874432091533005992011-06-19T19:59:43.275-07:002011-06-19T19:59:43.275-07:00Well, I watched and still watch, friends work in c...Well, I watched and still watch, friends work in companies that waste money for years by keeping dead weight on the books. So I am not so trusting of them (not trusting of gov. programs either as I think it is good to always have a level of inquiry about how time and money are spent...regardless of the situation). <br /><br />I have no problem with the statement CCC 1883<br />I think it is very true and wise....but it is also ideal.<br /><br />But...what about social security (from the 1960's until now) do you quibble with? If you read the article I linked to, the social security program seemed to be unbelievably efficient almost the day it was enacted. I think it helped many widows and elderly people. I think it had an eye to the "common good". <br /><br />Before that millions were very poor in this country. Would it have been great if every churchgoer gave one fourth of their income to these folks voluntarily so we did not need the overhead inherent in the gov. program? Yes. Was that happening? No. (Not on a scale that was needed by a long shot).<br /><br />Like it or not, gov. programs are needed. I don't like paying taxes, but I do like having roads...and EMS systems in my town...which I cannot create myself. I don't like paying taxes, and hate the size and bent of our military spending (and the graft and waste in the system), but I do like not worrying that North Korea is going to bomb my home. <br /><br />I think it is important to learn what we can from the successes of gov. programs to help the poor, and tweak these programs as we go forward. Raising the retirement age to 68 would be a good start.<br /><br />Can you answer me if you thought social security had been a successful program? Anyone else?Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-26971787821828020102011-06-19T19:16:09.896-07:002011-06-19T19:16:09.896-07:00Mary, inefficient private companies go out of busi...Mary, inefficient private companies go out of business. Inefficient government programs? They never die. <br /><br />And as I've said before, sometimes making progress means making a U-turn. (A program which started out good might not fit the times and circumstances anymore.) <br /><br />You might be interested in reading about the Catholic understanding of subsidiarity:<br /><br />Catechism of the Catholic Church says (CCC 1883):<br /><br /><i>Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which ‘a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good’.</i><br /><br />And from Catholic Culture, here:<br />http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/what_you_need_to_know/index.cfm?id=84<br />Subsidiarity<br /><br /><i>The social teaching of the Church is based on the human person as the principle, subject and object of every social organization. Subsidiarity is one of the core principles of this teaching. This principle holds that human affairs are best handled at the lowest possible level, closest to the affected persons.</i><br /><br />I don't know about you, but I never heard about this growing up Catholic. And yet, there it is. So much for the catechesis of the 70s and 80s.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-39181816887007119852011-06-19T19:00:57.519-07:002011-06-19T19:00:57.519-07:00Stacy,
Hi. It is my understanding that the observ...Stacy,<br />Hi. It is my understanding that the observer effect is actually not the same thing as Heisenberg U. P. I thought observer effect meant that, until (in a quantum system) an observer (which could be an animate or inanimate object) "observes" an event, that event actually exists in a (very hard to understand) suspended state of reality where many possible outcomes are somehow superimposed upon one another. The minute the "observer" or instrument measures or sees what is happening, the probabilities of other outcomes go to zero and the wavefunction (that embodies all of these probabilities "collapses" to one). The observation effects the outcome. <br /><br />The Heisenberg theory is what you said, you cannot measure or "know" both the momentum and position of a subatomic particle at the same time.<br /><br />Thanks.Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-12148685488912162282011-06-19T18:24:31.225-07:002011-06-19T18:24:31.225-07:00Got your point Leila..(but actually Medicare is a ...Got your point Leila..(but actually Medicare is a much larger problem than S.S.), but what of my point to Sharon? Which is, she thinks government programs are not good ways to help the poor, and the facts are that social security lifted MILLIONS out of poverty in the blink of an eye when private efforts were doing little. It's like you are saying, "well, the future of the social security program is not so rosy (as it stands...things look much better if you extend the retirement age to 68) so that erases all of the truly good things it did." <br />See page 32 of the following document: http://urbanpolicy.berkeley.edu/pdf/Ch6SocialEG0404.pdf<br /><br />I have seen some graft in government programs...no doubt, but i have also seen enormous inefficiency in private companies.marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-24990995747535259212011-06-19T10:42:45.077-07:002011-06-19T10:42:45.077-07:00I didn't say that at all. You could be incredi...I didn't say that at all. You could be incredibly well-loved and appreciate it, but I think that requires at least a recognition that such a thing as unkindness exists as well, though you wouldn't have to experience it firsthand or to an extreme. Now that I think more about it though, one thing I hadn't considered earlier is that these emotions could be evolutionarily engrained in us (which would make a lot of sense, I think), and so it's possible we could appreciate love without any knowledge of hate (or justice without knowledge of injustice, etc). This might be a question founded not in philosophy but in biology - I'm not quite sure, and I might have been a bit hasty in my original judgment. That said, I'm still inclined to think that someone raised in a bubble of perfect love (or justice) would take it entirely for granted, and wouldn't even know that they were being loved, because they wouldn't know that such a thing as not being loved could exist. I don't know that a situation like this has ever existed (or ever could), though, but it's interesting to consider. Does that make a bit more sense?<br /><br />I'm still not sure how these ideas could exist independently of people to experience them, though, or how ideas and thoughts could exist without any matter at all.Michellehttp://existenceandessence.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-52269905340984460552011-06-19T10:06:34.399-07:002011-06-19T10:06:34.399-07:00Michelle, just to flesh out your idea further: Do ...Michelle, just to flesh out your idea further: Do you think, then, that a child cannot know and understand a mother's love unless that child also feels what it is like to be hated, beaten, neglected, left lonely and defeated? And then, should we be looking to give a person both experiences, so that they can get the "full understanding" of love?<br /><br />I understand if you have moved past the conversation, but it occurs to me that you are saying we can only know and experience true love if we are hated and ill-treated. I reject that idea totally, but I just want to see if I have that right.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-78050741053485163412011-06-19T09:24:54.271-07:002011-06-19T09:24:54.271-07:00My point being, of course, that Social Security wa...My point being, of course, that Social Security was founded at a time when there was an assumption that Americans would continue to have babies. That assumption, thanks to widespread acceptance of contraception and abortion, is no longer valid.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-16916886066200342102011-06-19T08:40:02.462-07:002011-06-19T08:40:02.462-07:00* I want to say "artificially" in additi...* I want to say "artificially" in addition to "unnaturally". Every act and decision has a consequence, and an inverted population pyramid has a catastrophic economic implications.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-73158675008600429012011-06-19T08:37:33.288-07:002011-06-19T08:37:33.288-07:00Mary, you are right, but there is a huge problem: ...Mary, you are right, but there is a huge problem: SS is unsustainable, and any attempts to fix it have been rebuffed. The biggest problem of all is that couples aren't having children and the fertility rate has gone down (unnaturally) to the point that the program cannot survive as is:<br /><br />http://www.eppc.org/publications/pubID.4476/pub_detail.asp<br /><br />I've got eight kids, so I'm doing what I can to keep it alive. Or rather, my kids will be taking care of those all those elderly who decided to limit their families to a "manageable" one or two kids. ;)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-57725480990735913932011-06-19T08:32:02.126-07:002011-06-19T08:32:02.126-07:00Sharon,
I understand the woes of government "...Sharon,<br />I understand the woes of government "charity". But just for clarification, as I understand it, the social security system lifted millions of our elderly out of poverty. Here are some stats: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1863Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-44056624301432516952011-06-19T08:25:32.245-07:002011-06-19T08:25:32.245-07:00Mary,
Godel's theorem applies to wave-particl...Mary,<br /><br />Godel's theorem applies to wave-particle duality too, the stuff in the cartoon you linked as it shows that the <i>act of observation</i> indeed changes the outcome, I.e. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. It is impossible to measure both the position and momentum of moving things. You can only measure one or the other.Stacy Trasancoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14638075878905614981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-81732180236491945282011-06-19T06:32:33.507-07:002011-06-19T06:32:33.507-07:00Mary, quickly, you asked about Godel's incompl...Mary, quickly, you asked about Godel's incompleteness theorem. Here's my understanding of it in a non-math, non-physics nutshell.<br /><br />He says you can't prove that something is final and whole within the thing.<br /><br />For instance, if you wanted to prove that your house was the whole universe you could not do that by remaining in your house. You have to get outside of it to prove the whole house is there...but in doing that you've also just proved that it isn't the whole universe either.<br /><br />Drives cosmologists crazy!Stacy Trasancoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14638075878905614981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-27115315866080556242011-06-18T19:57:40.061-07:002011-06-18T19:57:40.061-07:00Leila, I think we'll probably have to just dis...Leila, I think we'll probably have to just disagree here. Though I think I know what you mean, I've never seen any instance where dualism doesn't exist - if there is a situation where an abstract quality doesn't have both a positive and negative (like love and hate), it seems that by definition we wouldn't be aware of it, because it'd be completely taken for granted. For an abstract quality to exist without us being aware of it, there would have to be someone outside of humanity being aware of it, which I have problems with because thoughts/awareness/feelings existing outside of the material is not something that makes sense to me. Just my take on it, though.<br /><br />And, no, I'm not quite sure on free will yet, so I really can't give you a straight answer there (or even come close to discussing it intelligently). Up until very recently I hadn't really thought about it, and assumed we did have free will (I am sitting here typing as opposed to...whatever else it is that I could choose to do), but I need to think and read more about it. For all intents and purposes, though, I do operate under the assumption that I am in control of my actions and everyone else is in control of theirs.Michellehttp://existenceandessence.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-42953400794688557382011-06-18T19:30:49.076-07:002011-06-18T19:30:49.076-07:00Michelle, can you just clarify for me. You are say...Michelle, can you just clarify for me. You are saying that you don't believe in free will?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-80373754364957109752011-06-18T19:21:38.193-07:002011-06-18T19:21:38.193-07:00Put another way: is there any abstract quality tha...<i>Put another way: is there any abstract quality that we recognize and appreciate that exists without its opposite? Love/hate, justice/injustice, caring/uncaring, clean/dirty, beauty/ugliness, etc.</i><br /><br />Michelle, I think this is dualism, and we Catholics reject dualism. Actually pure love, pure justice, pure beauty, pure truth is called Heaven, and it can very much be appreciated, even if no one has experienced the privation of those things. A privation is not substantive. It is a lack of something good. When people have the fullness of what is good, that is the state of perfection. And we all long for it. All of us.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-22716388485349917182011-06-18T17:47:51.136-07:002011-06-18T17:47:51.136-07:00Haha, like I said, I'm not sure where I stand ...Haha, like I said, I'm not sure where I stand on the whole free will issue yet. The little snippets I've read arguing against it have been pretty convincing, but not enough for me to fully agree yet. Maybe the fact that we don't act entirely unpredictably is a point against free will, maybe the fact that I've consciously chosen to comment back instead of playing Angry Birds is a point for free will (maybe two points - Angry Birds is pretty compelling). I'm not sure yet!Michellehttp://existenceandessence.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-57190977576128245952011-06-18T17:27:09.597-07:002011-06-18T17:27:09.597-07:00Michelle,
Thoughts to me are an extension of me, ...Michelle,<br /><br />Thoughts to me are an extension of me, part of me, an extension of my free will. When I learned of the Blessed Trinity, thinking and willing in God, I understood my love for my community, my husband, my children and myself.<br /><br />To think is to participate in divinity. To think thoughts that are meaningful and good is to think humbly.<br /><br />As to Dawkin's nonsense, if the outcome of your own thoughts are so complicated and hard to predict, then I guess it would be unreasonable to expect you not to murder your children by starving them to death next week, right?<br /><br />Something tells me otherwise! ;-)Stacy Trasancoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14638075878905614981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-23351067549192618302011-06-18T16:33:59.070-07:002011-06-18T16:33:59.070-07:00That's alright, Stacy, no hard feelings! :) I ...That's alright, Stacy, no hard feelings! :) I know I'm a bit tactless at times, and that never helps, so my apologies for that! <br /><br />I guess I could ask you the same - what are thoughts to you? It seems we're operating under irreconcilably different definitions. I do think thoughts are just a function of matter and physical laws, which I briefly hinted earlier might suggest a lack of free will (which it seems you're suggesting too). While I haven't read nearly enough on this to form a complete opinion (can you ever really read enough about anything?), here's a quote from Hawking's <i>The Grand Design</i> that I think does a nice job of explaining why I shouldn't be assumed to be an automaton set into motion by Richard Dawkins ;) :<br /><br /><i>"While conceding that human behavior is indeed determined by the laws of nature, it also seems reasonable to conclude that the outcome is determined in such a complicated way and with so many variables as to make it impossible in practice to predict."</i><br /><br />Anyway, that is an entirely different discussion to have at another time. I think it must come down to this (correct me if I'm wrong!): thoughts existing outside of matter can only make sense if you assume that thoughts have little or no basis in matter. I'm still not sure how the thoughts could be <i>about</i> anything (and then would they even be thoughts?) without matter to think about or provide sensory data, but I'm willing to settle with this. <br /><br />Even though I don't think we can agree on this, I'm glad you've found beliefs that bring you peace and satisfaction. Thank you for the discussion! :)Michellehttp://existenceandessence.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-34588630677538679742011-06-18T15:30:49.671-07:002011-06-18T15:30:49.671-07:00Stacy here, back from Mass. Sorry Michelle, patien...Stacy here, back from Mass. Sorry Michelle, patience is not my greatest virtue. Truth be told, I'd rather be sitting with you over coffee asking you about your studies and your family. To this:<br /><br /><i>"How can thought and love exist before matter? This is really not a rhetorical question - how can thoughts exist without something material doing the thinking?"</i><br /><br />Define thoughts? Explain how you can think of the unit 1 and unity and at the same time think of infinity...all while using trillions of moving parts, probably more, yet finite moving parts in your brain.<br /><br />And if your thoughts are just a function of matter and physical laws, explain to me why I should entertain any arguments from you since they aren't really anything you are in control of.<br /><br />The non-scientific, non-quantity of matter answer...our spirits think and love using the sensory data of our physical bodies. That's 2,000 years of science and theology, revelation and mystery. I don't have a better answer than that...and those are just my thoughts. I'm only human. :-) <br /><br />A while ago I asked those questions too but I realized that if I spent my life doubting I'd never grab onto any real knowledge and move forward. And then someone really loved me enough to show me what love is...and I ran with that!Stacy Trasancoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14638075878905614981noreply@blogger.com