tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post3388041192764045354..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Little Teachings from the Bubble: Mary's Perpetual VirginityLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-63287851578735429532012-06-29T21:01:31.436-07:002012-06-29T21:01:31.436-07:00What a shame this post is so old! Olya, I've ...What a shame this post is so old! Olya, I've struggled with the very same objection! May I recommend a link that has cleared it up for me, if not inarguably, then at least to my satisfaction. :) Hopefully you signed up for email updates or something. http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2010/12/was-mary-unwed-mother.htmlCassi Mosherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665015720293096093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-89181847514420763862010-07-02T14:20:17.772-07:002010-07-02T14:20:17.772-07:00I am so glad I found this part of your blog. I wil...I am so glad I found this part of your blog. I will be tuning in for my little lessons on a regular basis. I love that you are so logical!<br /><br />Fantastic! Truly fantastic.<br /><br />Love in Christ,<br /><br />Little JoAnnLittle JoAnnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04365868681704271371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-55903642867126820782010-06-22T15:21:00.162-07:002010-06-22T15:21:00.162-07:00I love this post and the explanations you give! T...I love this post and the explanations you give! Thanks for blowing up my bubble just a little bit more :).Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04738076740941616678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-82144812055499117482010-06-21T23:02:09.601-07:002010-06-21T23:02:09.601-07:00Olya, I thought all day about whether or not I sho...Olya, I thought all day about whether or not I should go forward with a Protestant/Catholic type debate (a worthy endeavor). <br /><br />Ultimately, I'm really bad about disciplining myself and setting limits for myself... I actually would love to have this discussion with you, but my family already complains about the time I spend on the computer (they are right), and starting a discussion like the one I would want to dive into would really not be good for my obsessive personality! I would be thinking of it and wanting to keep going with you forever! :)<br /><br />So, I'm going to force myself to commit to the limits I set for myself here, and I am going to stick to writing to a Catholic audience (though everyone is welcome!). If you read my reversion story (on the sidebar) you will see that my passion is making sure that lukewarm or uninformed Catholics will be educated about their Catholic Faith. It's kinda the niche that keeps me balanced. :)<br /><br />However, I don't want to just leave you (and any other Protestant friends) hanging, and so I am going to take the advice of another blogger and put some great links on the side of my blog. I won't get to it tonight, but I promise to do it soon. I may link to great sites, or I may write them myself. Not sure yet.<br /><br />Anyway, please know that I am thrilled to have you reading the blog and I hope you will stay in the "Bubble"! I love hearing from you!<br /><br />God bless!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-50327505062376946062010-06-21T07:59:11.445-07:002010-06-21T07:59:11.445-07:00Leila, I did find it very interesting, though not ...Leila, I did find it very interesting, though not persuading. I even descussed it with my husband. We both think that the use of the word 'until' in those examples is different from the way it's used in the story of Mary. In the first to cases it's used with the 'closing' events. In other words, it's obvious that the sinonym to that word is 'never' In the story of Mary the meaning of word 'until' is obviously used in our modern way since Mary didn't die after giving birth. Giving birth was the event that ended one part of her life (being a virgin) and started another part (knowing her husband)It's like me saying 'I didn't play drums until our drummer left the church' Does it mean I still don't play them? If it were the case why whould I even say that? I feel I am not putting my thoughts into words very well here, let me know if it doesn't make sence.Olyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-71110890065504935392010-06-19T17:49:40.169-07:002010-06-19T17:49:40.169-07:00Love it, love it, love it... keep them coming!!! ...Love it, love it, love it... keep them coming!!! And you guys were up blogging that early... I was up reading at that hour!! I love waking up to some new blogging. I think I feel back asleep with my phone in hand .... :) Ha!Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03601254223991410089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-82119552496686906042010-06-19T17:03:32.523-07:002010-06-19T17:03:32.523-07:00Adrienne – I have no answer on the blue, but never...Adrienne – I have no answer on the blue, but never thought it was Mary’s favorite color, just that we as a Church attributed blue to Mary like we do green for ordinary time, purple for lent, etc. I also thought it originated from her appearances and artists’ interpretations of those events. <br /><br />However, as unknowledgeable as I am on this subject, I do have a story (shocking, I know). My current pastor only wears dark blue shirts, not the traditional black. A group of us had a big pow-wow discussion about it. One thought it was for Mary. Another (deacon’s wife) thought it was part of his particular religious community. Yet another thought it was something regarding the Pastor’s native country (Ireland). My DH finally asked Father why he wore dark blue instead of black. The answer? “Because I like the color navy.” We laughed so hard because here we were acting like a bunch of theologians trying to find a purpose and it really boiled down to one man’s fashion preference....https://www.blogger.com/profile/09490440266637782466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-85421636256755815422010-06-19T15:36:25.274-07:002010-06-19T15:36:25.274-07:00Olya, I mean't "you'll find the link ...Olya, I mean't "you'll find the link interesting"Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-4357415781469898042010-06-19T15:35:33.965-07:002010-06-19T15:35:33.965-07:00Olya, you find the link interesting, then, as it a...Olya, you find the link interesting, then, as it addresses the issue of the word "until" and what that does and doesn't mean. (i.e., "until she gave birth") Here's an excerpt about that from the article:<br /><br />But they {fundamentalists} are using a narrow, modern meaning of "until," instead of the meaning it had when the Bible was written. In the Bible, it means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point; it does not imply that the action did happen later, which is the modern sense of the term. In fact, if the modern sense is forced on the Bible, some ridiculous meanings result. <br /><br />Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23). Are we to assume she had children after her death? <br /><br />There is also the burial of Moses. The book of Deuteronomy says that no one knew the location of his grave "until this present day" (Deut. 34:6, Knox). But we know that no one has known since that day either. <br /><br />The examples could be multiplied, but you get the idea—nothing can be proved from the use of the word "till" in Matthew 1:25. Recent translations give a better sense of the verse: "He had no relations with her at any time before she bore a son" (New American Bible); "He had not known her when she bore a son" (Knox).Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-999305989319553922010-06-19T14:09:23.917-07:002010-06-19T14:09:23.917-07:00thank you, I'll check it out. And, some protes...thank you, I'll check it out. And, some protestant churches can be 'out there' with their teachings, so I usually just go to the Bible and since it says that Mary was a virgin until she gave birth, that's what I believe.Olyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-35969437158246213992010-06-19T14:05:28.196-07:002010-06-19T14:05:28.196-07:00Thanks so much for such a thoughtful and concise r...Thanks so much for such a thoughtful and concise response, Leila. And also thank you, Ann, for the helpful follow-up about the validity of "unconsummated" marriage--that makes much more sense. Thanks for catching that part of my query too. <br />I also appreciate the additional information about Mary being called the "Spouse of the Holy Spirit". That term has always made me cringe because I feel that "spouse" sounds awkward there, making Mary sound like a polygamist having two husbands and of course leaving St. Joseph a bit like "chopped liver", as you better expressed it. I had assumed that title was non-traditional and had probably come from the same sources that claim Mary's favorite color is definitely blue (nothing against this, but I'm just not sure how this custom was started. Anyone know? My guess is by the Renaissance artists who depicted Jesus as a little blond-hair boy with blue eyes.) It is probably semantics issues on my part, but I sort of brushed off the title without giving it much thought. The linguist in me would still prefer a different term to express her relationship with the Holy Spirit, but perhaps there really isn't one as He is the one by whom she conceived and thinking of it that way, I definitely cringe less. ;) Also, it is interesting to think of her relationship with God being fulfilled here on earth as ours will be in Heaven. I hadn't thought much about marriage as a preparation for this.<br />Br. Opisso's explanation of the tradition of celibate marriage in early Judaism helped me to see the perpetual virginity argument better as well in light of the fact that there was a precedent established in early Judaism for celibate marriages. (Side note: this explanation was especially helpful for my formerly protestant husband, who does not go for biblical proof of Marian doctrines unless it is absolutely clear that the biblical passage cited is referring to Mary. So I am very happy you had the Jewish authority in your post too. :)) Thanks again for clearing all of this up!<br />--Adrienne (I will eventually figure out how to change "Dave" from appearing when I log in. I'm sorry for the appearance of a male "intrusion" in our cozy, little feminine circle. ;))Adriennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11833202498664629658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-25020232422821594442010-06-19T09:44:06.962-07:002010-06-19T09:44:06.962-07:00Great post. Thanks for helping us think about it.Great post. Thanks for helping us think about it.mrsblondieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04624922903281385565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-45401397581743797892010-06-19T09:23:23.492-07:002010-06-19T09:23:23.492-07:00Great post! Keep these coming-I won't ever get...Great post! Keep these coming-I won't ever get enough!Kaitlin @ More Like Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02260649249438520187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-53518056421631360442010-06-19T09:04:25.069-07:002010-06-19T09:04:25.069-07:00Sarah, I believe you are right on that issue. I ju...Sarah, I believe you are right on that issue. I just read that as well, when I was researching Josephite marriage. A priest must willingly choose a life of celibacy, not have it decided for him. It's a beautiful sacrifice for the sake of the Kingdom, and you are right that it is not a choice that our sex-saturated culture can understand/accept.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-64819423491882503132010-06-19T08:46:36.065-07:002010-06-19T08:46:36.065-07:00WOW! Awesome post! You explained this so well and ...WOW! Awesome post! You explained this so well and concisely.<br /><br />I've often wondered if our sex-focused/saturated culture makes it harder to accept or understand Mary's perpetual virginity than it is for people of other eras and cultures where celibacy is more normal.<br /><br />Also, in regards to "ability" to consummate a marriage vs. "decision" not to: I recently heard that a man who is incapable of sexual relations can't be a priest? Something about needing to *choose* celibacy? Am I making that up?Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04966555296621723142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-11257476445534832702010-06-19T08:23:09.260-07:002010-06-19T08:23:09.260-07:00I love this post! And I love our Church!I love this post! And I love our Church!Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08146718549061898275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-9966859027306126102010-06-19T07:45:51.229-07:002010-06-19T07:45:51.229-07:00Love it love it! Thanks blog Mom! Love the little ...Love it love it! Thanks blog Mom! Love the little teachings. More please!Hebrews 11:1https://www.blogger.com/profile/15235249884008648163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-18531984750748205022010-06-19T07:41:56.801-07:002010-06-19T07:41:56.801-07:00Thanks...I'm going to really enjoy these Littl...Thanks...I'm going to really enjoy these Little Teachings!Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02893951886426781163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-62560511833533213792010-06-19T07:41:24.126-07:002010-06-19T07:41:24.126-07:00http://www.catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lo...http://www.catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp<br /><br />Olya, the link above has lots of good information on what you asked.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-86952621449660829302010-06-19T07:35:06.597-07:002010-06-19T07:35:06.597-07:00Olya, the Church has always understood those "...Olya, the Church has always understood those "brothers and sisters" as his cousins or kin (or even possibly children from Joseph, if he were an older man and previously widowed). There are many proofs for this, but that is for another post. But essentially, their was no word exclusively for "sibling" then, and the translated word also can mean "cousins" or kin. Just as Lot was called Abraham's brother (I believe) in the OT, even though he was his nephew.... <br /><br />Sorry, I was up till 2:00am and I need sleep! :) You can google some Catholic sources on that. Oh, and the Reformers also believed in Mary's perpetual virginity, so they did not consider it in the least way unbiblical.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-91021831120892819062010-06-19T07:29:51.514-07:002010-06-19T07:29:51.514-07:00SO, THEN, ACCORDING TO CATHOLIC CHURCH, WERE JESUS...SO, THEN, ACCORDING TO CATHOLIC CHURCH, WERE JESUS'S BROTHERS AND SISTERS MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE BORN BY ANOTHER WOMAN?Olyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-75617456169576227212010-06-19T07:20:35.756-07:002010-06-19T07:20:35.756-07:00PS: I also deliberately did not do any "apol...PS: I also deliberately did not do any "apologetics" in this post, i.e. defending against Protestant objections. That was beyond the scope of the post. :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-74843614172643584012010-06-19T07:19:14.423-07:002010-06-19T07:19:14.423-07:00Ann, your are right!! I almost put that disclaimer...Ann, your are right!! I almost put that disclaimer in, but my "little" post was getting so long! But you are right that Adrienne was going there with her question.<br /><br />Essentially, if one or both parties do not have the ABILITY to consummate the marriage, then the marriage is not valid. It would not be a "marriage" then, but a "friendship" is how I look at it, since no marital act is possible! <br /><br />You win some sort of prize here, Ann!<br /><br />And, as you said, this is different from a Josephite marriage, in which both parties are able, but both parties choose to abstain.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-12930417126811541992010-06-19T06:48:18.241-07:002010-06-19T06:48:18.241-07:00I really enjoying reading your "educational&q...I really enjoying reading your "educational" posts. Lord knows I need all the help I can get. Keep'em coming!!! :)More Than Anythinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10725588288878747692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-23047614296375037792010-06-19T06:07:19.532-07:002010-06-19T06:07:19.532-07:00Now that I'm up at 8, I hope that Sew and Ann ...Now that I'm up at 8, I hope that Sew and Ann are sleeping in! Good grief girls!!!!Chasinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07270063135679037402noreply@blogger.com