tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post2353343458184632083..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Pope Fact: Infallible does not mean sinlessLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-76556877249697663042012-06-26T16:03:30.100-07:002012-06-26T16:03:30.100-07:00Catolica Pensata, I don't have but a moment, b...Catolica Pensata, I don't have but a moment, but yes… It is always intrinsically wrong for a married couple to use contraception. You might be confusing ends and means. It is NOT always wrong for a couple to postpone or avoid pregnancy (the end). But it is necessary that to get to that end (of avoiding a pregnancy) that the <i>means</i> are moral, too.<br /><br />For an act to be moral, both the means and the end must be moral. If not, then the act is immoral.<br /><br />Here is a post I wrote specifically about the differences between contraception and NFP:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/03/important-follow-up-to-natural-family.html<br /><br />I think that might clear it up! :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-91317705501173629602012-06-26T15:28:00.358-07:002012-06-26T15:28:00.358-07:00Thanks so much for you help and patience. I'm ...Thanks so much for you help and patience. I'm loving your blog. Sincere and honest and direct to the point. Great job!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11815618640747911938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-86641100150954245212012-06-26T15:25:50.889-07:002012-06-26T15:25:50.889-07:00Herewith follows the link:
http://tinyurl.com/7s...Herewith follows the link: <br /> http://tinyurl.com/7sd6yqd<br />I'm struggling with Demmet's rationale...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11815618640747911938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-62112314273567095662012-06-26T15:19:59.560-07:002012-06-26T15:19:59.560-07:00Wow! You're fast!!!!
Ok, I see your point abou...Wow! You're fast!!!!<br />Ok, I see your point about degrees of morality and also about intrisic evil.<br />Now, I'm struggling with the qualification: what exactly can be called intrinsically evil?<br />Is contraception made by a married couple intrinsically evil? How NFP can be considered moral and, for example, using condoms, immoral? Is The mere mean used as birth control by a couple comsidered immoral? As I understand (so far, I'm not saying I'm right and the Church is wrong, I'm just saying I don't understand the Church position, and I'm trying to understand it, otherwise I wouldn't be here making so many questions!), it can't be considered immoral. <br />I've read this article by a catholic philosopher and I think he seems to be right.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11815618640747911938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-28060541298900904642012-06-26T15:01:05.613-07:002012-06-26T15:01:05.613-07:00Ops, by the church; considered an immoral behavior...Ops, by the church; considered an immoral behavior; but as a sin as well; destroying trees; object to doctrinal changes...<br />I'm not trying to polemize, just to understand the topic better. You can indicate some references.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11815618640747911938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-9207523447445189692012-06-26T14:38:01.876-07:002012-06-26T14:38:01.876-07:00Catolica Pensata, let's parse this out a littl...Catolica Pensata, let's parse this out a little bit. When the Church speaks of the moral law with regards to the Deposit of Faith, it's non-negotiable, and it's intrinsic stuff. For example: Fornication is intrinsically evil. No "leeway" or prudential judgement. Same with adultery, theft, lies, etc.<br /><br />The issues you presented have to do with degrees and with prudential judgement. For example, the Church never has said, "Thou shalt not cut down forests". <i>And she still does not say that.</i> The act of cutting down trees itself is not intrinsically immoral. That's not part of the intrinsic, objective moral law. It would depend on the circumstances of what and where and why we are cutting down trees. For example, paper companies grow trees as a crop. Forests are grown and cut down on purpose, all the time. This is not intrinsically evil. If so, we all have to forego even our Christmas trees, which are grown as crops. Forest rangers have to cut down thousands of trees sometimes, to prevent forest fires.<br /><br />"Slavery" has never been taught as a moral good ever in the history of the Church, if you are talking about chattel slavery. Some types of servitude are certainly morally allowable, or morally neutral. Again, it depends. We see the Bible (and others) use the word "slavery" when in fact there is a huge spectrum of servitude that that covers. Some immoral, some moral.<br /><br />But when it comes to sexual morality such as contraception, adultery, fornication, homosexuality… all that is <i>intrinsically</i> evil (i.e., <i>by its very nature</i>, Act "X" is wrong). Never has it been taught as anything other than evil, nor will it ever be. Same with the other tenets of the moral law that are specific and intrinsic. <br /><br />So, while the Pope has not come out and declared any part of the moral law infallibly (never has he said, <i>ex cathedra</i>, that it is wrong to murder or fornicate, for example), it is still infallibly taught, as it has been taught "always and everywhere" (this is how the ordinary and universal Magisterium works). The pope has never officially declared that "God exists" <i>ex cathedra</i> either. And yet we know that is an infallible teaching of the ordinary and universal Magisterium. He doesn't HAVE to declare it infallible. The Church already teaches it as such.<br /><br />You may want to read this post next, which discusses the different types of infallibility, since papal infallibility is not all there is:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2010/07/answer-to-doctrinal-quiz-show-third.htmlLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-19512257059104538202012-06-26T14:13:38.699-07:002012-06-26T14:13:38.699-07:00I'd like to know more about infallibility and ...I'd like to know more about infallibility and moral issues, because I've read the moral teachings are not subject to papal infallibility and we can use our conscience as our guide. For example, slavery was tolerable by th Church earlier, but now is consodered an immoral behavior, and much worse, a real sin. Another example: destroyings trees and forests was considered a normal behavior, but now, it can be seen not just as an immoral behavior, but a sin as well. Human beings are now perceived as responsible for the nature, for the creation, in an anthropocentric theory of bioethics. If those subjects have been objetc to doctrinal change, and we can say both are moral issues, it's also possible to state that moral teachings are not included in the infallibility possessed by our popes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11815618640747911938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-80529790749602490062012-06-19T15:43:00.213-07:002012-06-19T15:43:00.213-07:00I have that book on my shelf (just haven't rea...I have that book on my shelf (just haven't read it yet)! I will have to add it to the 'I should definitely actually no, really!, read this' pile. And I think I've read about that Pope before, maybe in Saints Behaving Badly? I can't remember his name though...Lieslhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04568652187821916186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-3440586745154624192012-06-19T10:33:46.717-07:002012-06-19T10:33:46.717-07:00The outcry against all things Catholic because of ...The outcry against all things Catholic because of the small percentage of pedophile priests is because it serves to support the theory that no one can do without sex. It is a huge finger pointing opportunity. But as with most finger pointing opportunities, it does not hold water but gets lots of press. I can't understand how celibacy can be said to be the cause of such sin when the number of non celibate abusers far out weighs the professed celibate ones. It "proves" that we are all just animals looking to "mate".Marcahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17392064158568134275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-30656141750025069392012-06-16T22:21:35.125-07:002012-06-16T22:21:35.125-07:00Liesl, the best story is the one pope who was firs...Liesl, the best story is the one pope who was first an anti-pope. When he was an anti-pope (not a valid pope), he taught heresy (he was a bad guy who helped to put the previous pope in prison). Eventually, he became the REAL pope. The empress wanted him to keep preaching the heresy that she believed in (which he had agreed with) and suddenly, he said nope! He never taught the heresy. He was ultimately killed for that, I believe. I can't remember his name and I'm too lazy to look it up (the Empress was Theodora, I believe). The story is recounted in <i>Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic</i>, by David Currie. He has other amazing evidence in there, in the chapters about authority. Really worth having on your shelf! Every Catholic should have it.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-62918318294430590242012-06-16T20:25:34.817-07:002012-06-16T20:25:34.817-07:00Leila, I'm wondering if you know of any times ...Leila, I'm wondering if you know of any times throughout Church history where a "bad" pope tried to teach in error but was stopped - you know, like movie-style tongue tied, etc.Lieslhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04568652187821916186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-38857275909384347192012-06-15T14:55:23.038-07:002012-06-15T14:55:23.038-07:00@ Joy and Leila, here's Fr. Barron with anothe...@ Joy and Leila, here's Fr. Barron with another one of his spot on discussions of "The Last Acceptable Prejudice" (might be familiar to some of you)<br /><br />http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/Fr-Barron-comments-on-The-Last-Acceptable.aspxSebastianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03993048824594772782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-11021000293053910942012-06-15T10:30:44.092-07:002012-06-15T10:30:44.092-07:00Dreampuff, thank you and welcome!
Also, for Joy o...Dreampuff, thank you and welcome!<br /><br />Also, for Joy or anyone who missed it (it ran long ago), here are my thoughts, in two parts, on the priest scandal:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2010/04/thoughts-on-church-sex-scandal-part-one.html<br /><br />And, if you are on a Mac, you might be seeing my whole blog in SCRIPT FONT, which is driving me crazy!! Why is it in script??? ACK!!! I would never do that! Blogger, I am so sick of you… sigh.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-38724884098571600782012-06-15T10:28:44.889-07:002012-06-15T10:28:44.889-07:00Joy, then why all the blanket priest-as-molestor j...Joy, then why all the blanket priest-as-molestor jokes on late night TV and in normal discourse? I don't see that happening with school teachers. And, honestly, there is more cover-up in the school system. The bishops were largely following the directives of the secular psychologists back a few decades ago, who told them that child molesters could be rehabilitated and should be. Of course, that begs the question of why the bishops listened to secular psychologists, but that again is a case of damned if they did, damned if they didn't. <br /><br />I just don't buy it that most people understand that Catholic priests offend less than the average. I don't buy it because what's in the media and what is talked about all the time points the finger square at priests. And it keeps going.<br /><br />I am very glad that Rigali and Chaput have helped things. That is good. We have a great bishop here, too, who has implemented many safeguards. However, if you read our local Phoenix paper online, and if you look at the comments by the public on <i>any</i> story that even touches on the Church, you will see the most vile and awful comments about priests-as-molestors in just about every other comment. It is a steady stream of hate towards priests. <br /><br />I never see this on articles or discussions of public schools or education. <br /><br />So, I'd like to think you are right, but I just don't see it.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-9050269497360159082012-06-15T10:21:02.053-07:002012-06-15T10:21:02.053-07:00I just discovered your blog Leila...I love it!
Lo...I just discovered your blog Leila...I love it!<br /><br />Lorenadreampuffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06866128386423948296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-46886987203286907652012-06-15T10:06:16.014-07:002012-06-15T10:06:16.014-07:00sorrry
* the perception is that the Bishops will c...sorrry<br />* the perception is that the Bishops will cover-up*Joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08553760391176072177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-29795242478877981132012-06-15T10:05:15.896-07:002012-06-15T10:05:15.896-07:00Actually my sense is that most people acknowledge ...Actually my sense is that most people acknowledge that the abuse does not happen more often in the church than in schools or Protestants churchs BUT if it does occur the Bishops are more apt to cover up and discredit the victims than hold the priest accountable and that kind of hypocrisy is fuel for the fire for the anti-Catholic forces.<br /><br />Public opinion here in Philadelphia has really improved since first Cardinal Rigali and now Chaput have insisted on more transparency and taking every allegation seriously despite the oncoming trial.Joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08553760391176072177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-3733895068878725922012-06-15T09:05:05.070-07:002012-06-15T09:05:05.070-07:00Joy, understood, and yes, it should elicit outrage...Joy, understood, and yes, it should elicit outrage. But the question here is why the proportionality is so completely whacked out. Why is the outrage so <i>overwhelmingly</i> against (all) Catholic priests and the (entire) Catholic Church and of a volume not heard for any other sector (by comparison, we pretty much yawn about the rest). And yet the numbers, in reality, <i>don't</i> show a greater incidence of abuse in the Church, and in fact much, much <i>less</i> abuse than in families and schools (parents and teachers also are role models of morality and ethics and sex ed, no?). How do you account for the unbelievable disproportionality of outrage, if not by acknowledging a massive dose of anti-Catholic sentiment and even hatred for priests and the Church?<br /><br />That's really my issue… the proportionality is all off.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-40922363686190642182012-06-15T06:44:27.519-07:002012-06-15T06:44:27.519-07:00But Cassie is right ~ a large part of the problem ...But Cassie is right ~ a large part of the problem is the priestly role as teachers of morality. You can not lecture consenting married adults on what they may do within their bedroom and be perceived as giving priest abusing children a pass without the public going nutso.Joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08553760391176072177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-12729621237357689702012-06-15T06:32:48.897-07:002012-06-15T06:32:48.897-07:00Sexual abuse is sexual abuse. No matter WHO does ...Sexual abuse is sexual abuse. No matter WHO does it...<br /><br />MOTHER, FATHER, GRANDMOTHER, GRANDFATHER, TEACHER, AUNT, UNCLE, SISTER, BROTHER, FRIEND, PRIEST, PASTOR, CAREGIVER ETC...<br /><br />There is no discrimination in evil. Truthfully, I'm not sure how a father could molest a child or do perverse acts in front of a child. That blows my mind....But lets not stop talking about the Priest abuse scandals. Here is the thing, if that is what you want to concentrate on, don't discriminate. :) All sexual abuse is the same no matter who the abuser is...It does the same damage. It seeks to destroy. <br /><br />So in the end you are the one that ends up looking out of order when you start chiming in about priest abuse.....You really need to cover all abusers. G, could you imagine your father, your very own father, from whose flesh you came from sexually abusing you? How about your mother? Your grandmother? <br /><br />I'm talking from experience on this certain issue. Being the victim of abuse at the hands of a family member. It should NEVER happen in any circumstance and it should all be given the same attention and disgust. But it is not given the same attention as we see so clearly.....Sewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09963399196987365207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-78376363394998482222012-06-14T23:32:14.058-07:002012-06-14T23:32:14.058-07:00Points to Miss G for quickly jumping on the weak s...Points to Miss G for quickly jumping on the weak spot in my argument (which I was already aware existed): that teaching someone math has nothing to do with morals. Still, if you'd rather compare apples to apples, we could say that even if that teacher screws up his checkbook (or deliberately writes a bunch of bad checks), the math principles he teaches still remain valid. Another large difference being that a math teacher CAN (if he loses his mind and wants to get fired) teach errant mathematical principles in his classroom. In contrast, the church is assured of Christ's promise that the papal office will be protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error in the areas of faith and morals. If you haven't yet read the posts Leila links at the end of this one, I recommend it; they're quite good for helping understand that point. However, if you don't subscribe to an actual belief in the founding principles of the Christian faith, I am going to be very weak in the area of helping you understand the Catholic point of view. That is my personal weakness; I simply have no working idea how to "meet you where you are." I will happily discuss with you what I have learned, but I fear my foundation in Christianity and your apparent opposing position (I deduce from other comment threads) will create a gulf in understanding that we can't quite bridge. I'd like to think we can still treat each other kindly. :) Leila, I keep hearing so much about that particular book; I'm dying to read it, but I already have so many backlogged! I'll get there, though.Cassi Mosherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665015720293096093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-41130893300362039772012-06-14T22:28:52.183-07:002012-06-14T22:28:52.183-07:00That said, last time I checked teaching someone th...<i>That said, last time I checked teaching someone the Pythagorean Theorem didn't involve ingesting an entire philosophy/ideology about a deity who is perfect, a moral code to live by and the promise of an afterlife if one lives according to God's plan. </i><br /><br />Miss Gwen, I'm not sure how this is relevant?<br /><br />Look, if a pope were uneducated, youthful and dumb, he still would not be teaching error as pope. Even if he did not "ingest an entire philosophy", he still would teach the same truths that have come before, and never reverse or omit any part of the moral law, or the tenets of the Faith. The basics of faith and morals can be stated very simply: (for example) Murder of any innocent is intrinsically evil. Contraception defiles and changes the nature of a sacred act. Mary was Immaculately conceived, i.e., she is and has always been sinless. God is a Trinity of Persons. Etc. <br /><br />Not every pope was known for exploring the depth and beauty of these unchanging truths. Some popes did that/do that better than others. Some popes may have been less intelligent or eloquent and may have said very little. But none have or will steer the faithful off a doctrinal cliff. Truth will always be taught from the See of Peter, guaranteed. <br /><br />It's really incredibly simple and deeply profound at the same time. <br /><br />Hope that makes sense.<br /><br />And the very best book which illustrates how this happens <i>practically</i> speaking, with real life examples, is <i>Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic</i>, by David Currie. His chapter on authority gives some examples in history that still blow me away.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-6360987848081919822012-06-14T21:00:26.467-07:002012-06-14T21:00:26.467-07:00I'm certainly not disputing that abuse happens...I'm certainly not disputing that abuse happens in many situations/contexts or suggesting that it only happens amongst Catholic priests and children. <br /><br />That said, last time I checked teaching someone the Pythagorean Theorem didn't involve ingesting an entire philosophy/ideology about a deity who is perfect, a moral code to live by and the promise of an afterlife if one lives according to God's plan.Miss Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02503676176409924845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-37795686790810307962012-06-14T19:54:28.618-07:002012-06-14T19:54:28.618-07:00Cassi, well stated! Thank you!!
And, here's ...Cassi, well stated! Thank you!! <br /><br />And, here's an AP article about abusing (and passed-along) teachers, which tells a horrible tale, much worse in numbers than the priest scandal:<br /><br />http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/21/AR2007102100144.html<br /><br />And the Pythagorean Theorem still stands. Go figure.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-61751996428734497722012-06-14T19:47:42.100-07:002012-06-14T19:47:42.100-07:00May I add another thought regarding the pedophile ...May I add another thought regarding the pedophile priests? Every day in our nation's schools, teachers molest students. BUT, as is the case with the priests, it is a relatively small number. Does this cause us to say the whole school system is evil, or all teachers are bad people? Actually, a greater percentage of teachers than priests are child molesters. And people bash the Catholic Church over this who wouldn't dream of mistrusting their children's educators. If your child's math teacher is accused of molesting one of his classmates (or even if it's found to be absolutely true), does that cause you to doubt the validity of the Pythagorean Theorem? If I could tell unbelievers one thing, and have it stay with them, I think it would be this: Don't judge the Lord by His people. Too many publicly claim the name of Christ, but don't mean it, and even those who are sincere are subject to falling into sin, both deliberate and purely accidental. We aren't perfect; He is.Cassi Mosherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07665015720293096093noreply@blogger.com