tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post2062728616360964460..comments2024-03-09T00:51:33.602-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: You're not a monster. And nobody called you that.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger137125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-63692529250588898412010-12-02T08:51:58.500-07:002010-12-02T08:51:58.500-07:00fifty million souls were not allowed life since 19...fifty million souls were not allowed life since 1973 I am not seeing the benefits of their absence. <br />Is the air quality better?<br />Is the water supply purer?<br />Is there lasting peace?<br /><br />It is a groundless lie! Abortion has done nothing and has contributed nothing to the benefit of culture/society.<br /><br />Here is John Hardon's definition of Good.<br />In general, whatever is suitable or befitting someone or something. Practically, however, it is that which all things tend toward or desire. The good is the desirable, and therefore the object of the natural (or supernatural) needs or tendencies of a being.marcy and walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00015890052779488324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-83434205920871516282010-12-02T08:38:26.238-07:002010-12-02T08:38:26.238-07:00Marcy, I totally agree with you. You are right.
...Marcy, I totally agree with you. You are right. <br /><br />Believe it or not, there are factions now in the pro-abortion movement who do claim that abortion is a good. And even "sacramental". I should do a post on that someday....Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-36228592387594122822010-12-02T08:09:25.539-07:002010-12-02T08:09:25.539-07:00: 0 Abortion is an intrinsic evil and evil as def...: 0 Abortion is an intrinsic evil and evil as defined in John Haradon's dictionary is: The privation of a good that ought to be present. It is the lack of good that essentially belongs to a nature, the absence of a good that is natural and due to a being. Evil is therefore the absence of what ought to be there.<br /><br />If someone is declaring that abortion is a good---the argument is flawed from the get go. <br />The dialogue will only go in circles because that is how a dishonest intellect has to operate. The question of Abortion as a good even pro choice politicians haven't said that. <br />They say it is "needed" -- it is a "right" -- but have we really ever heard that abortion is good?marcy and walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00015890052779488324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-28865630961641379402010-12-01T21:50:29.967-07:002010-12-01T21:50:29.967-07:00Marcy, I am not sure, but I think you're right...Marcy, I am not sure, but I think you're right that that is what the goal should be. I guess the other side would argue that abortion is a "good". <br /><br />I'm using the Socratic Method loosely. It's a way to dissect and pin down the thought process and try to find truth at the end.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-81965382603025115392010-12-01T19:12:37.785-07:002010-12-01T19:12:37.785-07:00question???
Wouldn't the socratic method teac...question???<br /><br />Wouldn't the socratic method teach using only the good the true and the beautiful??<br /><br />That leaves the abortion issue off the table.<br />Doesn't it?marcy and walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00015890052779488324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-81097474396558033672010-12-01T14:40:46.718-07:002010-12-01T14:40:46.718-07:00But remember, I'm not your "student"...But remember, I'm not your "student", the lurkers are. The ones on the fence are the ones being taught about what you believe and why. And Catholics like me are able to see your thought process, the things that bring you to your beliefs. That's how I see it.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-72201417422643299752010-12-01T14:20:59.740-07:002010-12-01T14:20:59.740-07:00Well, sort of. Except that when I'm the teach...Well, sort of. Except that when I'm the teacher and you're saying something is evil, certainly I'm not leading you to it. <br /><br />It's an interesting way to think, though.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-9442524750327500202010-12-01T12:00:50.370-07:002010-12-01T12:00:50.370-07:00Mai, I see what you're saying. Maybe this is m...Mai, I see what you're saying. Maybe this is more how I see it:<br /><br />Mai and Leila are the "teachers," and the lurkers/readers are the "students". I ask you things, you ask me things, we challenge each other's ideas, and we try to show the reasonable steps we took to get to our (often opposite) conclusions. And then the readers decide. <br /><br />What do you think?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-19738630181005182712010-12-01T11:56:30.690-07:002010-12-01T11:56:30.690-07:00I was thinking of this on my walk at lunch - my im...I was thinking of this on my walk at lunch - my impression is that if you are the teacher and are trying to lead me through the Socratic method, the goal would get ME to say "That idea is evil." But if you are the teacher and are trying to teach me to reason, certainly telling me during the reasoning process that my idea is evil steps outside of the Socratic method. <br /><br />In other words, you and your crew have used the Socratic method outside of this discussion already, and are merely presenting me with your results.<br /><br />JoAnna, yes, it is a whole 'nother can of worms. We'd have to both accept what is an authority.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-11381798249706930702010-12-01T10:56:05.214-07:002010-12-01T10:56:05.214-07:00Actually, Mai, I think you are misunderstanding th...Actually, Mai, I think you are misunderstanding that concept. The wiki says, "the method encourages students to reason critically rather than appeal to authority <b>or use other fallacies</b>" (emphasis mine).<br /><br />This sentence is talking about the logical fallacy of appealing to authority, which is fully described <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, but in sum:<br /><br />"This fallacy is committed <b>when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject</b>. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious." (again, emphasis mine)<br /><br />So, appeals to God (or the Catholic Church) as an authority are not fallacious in the Socratic method as long as it can be proved that God (or the CC) are legitimate authorities on the subject in question. That's a whole 'nother can of worms, but I just wanted to point out that an appeal to authority during a debate isn't necessarily always a fallacy.JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-66211607366745038022010-12-01T09:47:30.538-07:002010-12-01T09:47:30.538-07:00Thanks, Mai. I think I am on good ground, then. I...Thanks, Mai. I think I am on good ground, then. I don't appeal to revelations from God when I speak to atheists. I appeal to the Natural Law, which many atheists subscribe to. <br /><br />Also, I think that arriving at an evil idea can be a result of sound reasoning (though it may be founded on a faulty premise). For example, if one reasons that human life is expendable, then one can argue for genocide, right? I guess a case can be made for it. Would it be wrong for someone to comment that genocide is an "evil idea"? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. I will have to ask my kids, who know more about Socratic Method than I.<br /><br />I will tell you that a huge, huge part of ancient philosophical discussion and dialogue is about "what is the Good"? That would mean, I suppose, that there is also "evil"? And that we can talk about "evil" and "evil ideas"? If we can discuss the True, Good and Beautiful, why wouldn't it follow that we can also discuss what exists when they are lacking? <br /><br />I hope that makes sense.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-35077433773752625392010-12-01T09:16:34.083-07:002010-12-01T09:16:34.083-07:00I have to admit I'm using Wikipedia, and this ...I have to admit I'm using Wikipedia, and this line from the methodology section says this: "The teacher and student are willing to accept any correctly-reasoned answer. That is, the reasoning process must be considered more important than pre-conceived facts or beliefs." I would say based on that, the teacher saying "Your ideas are evil" does not fit in.<br /><br />Also, this one is interesting: "the method encourages students to reason critically rather than appeal to authority or use other fallacies". Based on this, appealing to revelations from God also does not fit in.<br /><br />Again, not saying that you can't do both of those things, because you do and I'm still here, but this is only partially Socratic method.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-69576770908879682332010-12-01T09:07:07.564-07:002010-12-01T09:07:07.564-07:00CL, If you're right then I'm thrilled, bec...CL, If you're right then I'm thrilled, because that's how I've been using it. :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-82675074611915092192010-12-01T09:03:23.732-07:002010-12-01T09:03:23.732-07:00I could be off here, but I don't think the Soc...I could be off here, but I don't think the Socratic Method and judging ideas are mutually exclusive. In fact, one could argue that one would use the socratic method in order to clearly understand ideas so that they can be judged fairly.<br /><br />No?Meg @ True, Good and Beautifulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10507070127764766394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-81980131316184123712010-12-01T09:03:18.008-07:002010-12-01T09:03:18.008-07:00Mai, you are right and thanks for clarifying. I am...Mai, you are right and thanks for clarifying. I am not a formal student of the Socratic Method. I hope I did not imply that I do nothing here but the Socratic Method. I also do commentary, obviously. I comment on and judge different ideas and conclusions, after asking probing questions. I let others (like you) do the questioning and commenting on those ideas and conclusions, too. Then, I trust the readers to sort it out.<br /><br />I hope that helps.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-25704806484025629282010-12-01T08:50:50.081-07:002010-12-01T08:50:50.081-07:00Leila, I think you are avoiding my second question...Leila, I think you are avoiding my second question. I'll use your comment: <br /><br />"So, if it happens that some Catholic attacks you personally (i.e., "you're evil" rather than "your idea is evil"), you can call him on it! Tell him to get to confession, because that sort of thing is not allowed. :)"<br /><br />So I take it from that above statement that "Your idea is evil" is fine. <br /><br />I just don't understand this paragraph of yours: <br /><br />"L: Did you think I would say your liberal ideas are wonderful, and I won't judge the idea on its merits? I am sorry, but I don't really get how you have been mistreated, misrepresented or misled. Do liberals not like the Socratic method of getting to a truth or a clarity?"<br /><br />Tell me how "your idea is evil" fits into the Socratic method. <br /><br />You seem to be going back and forth - accusing me of not accepting the Socratic method, and then accusing me of not allowing you to "judge ideas". If you are using more than one method, that's fine, I'm sure I'll stick around, this is getting entertaining. Just as long as you admit that you are judging ideas sometimes, as well as using the Socratic method sometimes.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-54944072535524080892010-12-01T08:33:22.874-07:002010-12-01T08:33:22.874-07:00With regards to calling Mugabe a monster. I think ...With regards to calling Mugabe a monster. I think Mai is talking about strategy, and how to get the message across effectively. Mai, I can see why you would be prudent in how you used such words, not wanting to inflame or not be heard by those you are trying to help. I get that, totally.<br /><br />But on this forum, or in a situation where you were talking to other westerners, etc., you surely can speak the truth. The truth is, he was a "monster" if he did those monstrous things to others, willfully and with forethought. They're crimes against humanity, no? I think we could call Hitler a monster and not be far off. So, yes, we must be prudent in how we speak to certain groups in certain situations, but this blog is not a place to guard our words, it's a place to speak what is true.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-49771100789541898902010-12-01T08:28:19.977-07:002010-12-01T08:28:19.977-07:00Mai, on the first question:
How would you like me...Mai, on the first question:<br /><br />How would you like me to argue my case against abortion? There's not really a "pretty" way to talk about it, unless one talks around it. But I respect that you do not want to talk about.<br /><br />On the second: It's been a long time we've been talking, so could you tell me when I said your ideas were "monstrous"? I think it might have been when I said something like, "If moral relativism (everyone defines truth for himself) is the norm in a society, the results would be monstrous." And then you clarified that you are not a moral relativist, and that there are moral absolutes. So, taking you on your word, I will not call you a moral relativist. But I stand by my statement that a society of moral relativism leads to monstrous things. <br /><br />As for stomachs turning, you yourself agreed that the description of late term abortions is "monstrous." You agreed! But you think it's worse if we don't allow such monstrous acts (if I understand you correctly; correct me if I am wrong).<br /><br />If you want to tell me it makes your stomach turn that I want to outlaw abortions, I certainly would not be offended. It may very well be that my ideas are sickening to you. But we can still have a discussion, as long as you are not saying I am a sickening human being, or getting personal.<br /><br />But if you cannot separate the idea from the person, then we can't talk, it's true.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-29631663307043321032010-12-01T06:53:36.466-07:002010-12-01T06:53:36.466-07:00From a couple of comments ago, from Leila:
L: Di...From a couple of comments ago, from Leila: <br /><br />L: Did you think we would say that abortion is not a horrible evil thing? I am truly perplexed by what you thought I was going to do here. <br /><br />M: Uh, no. You've pretty much argued abortion in exactly the way I expected, which is why I refuse to argue it with you. <br /><br />L: Did you think I would say your liberal ideas are wonderful, and I won't judge the idea on its merits? I am sorry, but I don't really get how you have been mistreated, misrepresented or misled. Do liberals not like the Socratic method of getting to a truth or a clarity?<br /><br />M: I don't actually see how "Your ideas are monstrous" and "your ideas make my stomach turn" fit into the Socratic method. Please enlighten me - I'm really interested to see how that fits in.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-7786739223488021302010-11-30T18:17:42.156-07:002010-11-30T18:17:42.156-07:00Oh, and Marc - I definitely agree with you on your...Oh, and Marc - I definitely agree with you on your post about the reaction to such a discussion. Thank you. I was not surprised at all by Miss G's reaction to my post...if I believed the same way as the "establishment" I would have had the same reaction, I am sure.Christina @ Faith for Fertilityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03449150594337203350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-53137503361620863312010-11-30T18:13:07.444-07:002010-11-30T18:13:07.444-07:00Mai,
If you read my post above that is addressed...Mai, <br /><br />If you read my post above that is addressed to Miss G, you will see what actually made me sick. It was a response to a thought I had after reading her comment on the old post. Granted, I did not state this in my original comment, but I'm not the best at writing or expressing my thoughts on paper. I was not saying SHE was a terrible person or a monster. As stated earlier by other posters - you have a right to your ideas/beliefs. I do not agree with them...and yes, sometimes they can make me physically ill. I will not apologize for that and you shouldn't have to either. I am put off by the thought of what (I believe) some of these ideas could lead to - if society as a whole or majority ended up believing these things (that a woman has a right to place value on the life inside her (especially when it was already stated the the person believes that life begins at conception)...which could eventually 'justify' the killing of her unborn child...which may end up giving legal reason to eventually the killing of a born child ). I know this will NEVER happen - but the thought of it disgusts me - no apologies. You can poke holes in my logic - fine...I don't care. I really just wanted to point out I was not intending to attack Miss G. or anyone else who holds these beliefs. I think they are wrong and we are not here to gain consensus.Christina @ Faith for Fertilityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03449150594337203350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-41916340699719149512010-11-30T16:19:15.687-07:002010-11-30T16:19:15.687-07:00Mai, you brought up the comparison of an AIDS pati...Mai, you brought up the comparison of an AIDS patient being ravaged by disease and a baby having his neck stabbed and his brains sucked out at birth by an abortionist. You brought that up. However, I don't blame you one bit for not wanting to defend your position on abortion.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-8496520307969476162010-11-30T15:22:07.368-07:002010-11-30T15:22:07.368-07:00Mai,
My philosophy is that sometimes you have to...Mai, <br /><br />My philosophy is that sometimes you have to recognize evil to combat it. <br /><br />My husband didn't become pro-life until someone challenged him to look at the pictures of aborted babies on priestsforlife.org. He did, and it was then and only then he was able to recognize abortion for the evil it was.<br /><br />Whether or not I would call out someone or something as evil or<br />monstrous depends in the context involved.<br /><br />I'm curious, Mai, as to what consequences would exist if abortion were illegal that makes killing children preferable?JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-20236126940475476372010-11-30T15:07:24.377-07:002010-11-30T15:07:24.377-07:00No. I am done talking about abortion, as I said.No. I am done talking about abortion, as I said.MaiZekehttp://hameno.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-19952270968577327582010-11-30T14:52:28.691-07:002010-11-30T14:52:28.691-07:00Mai, please clarify that you get the distinction I...Mai, please clarify that you get the distinction I mentioned above, about AIDS ravaging a body and a doctor ravaging a baby's body. You get that those are apples and oranges, right? Otherwise, I can't help it, I feel a whole post coming on that will address that point.....Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.com