tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post103498700611578466..comments2024-03-09T00:51:33.602-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: To lukewarm Catholics: This is your moment. Defend your mother.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger278125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-62999373492273951552012-02-15T20:00:42.721-07:002012-02-15T20:00:42.721-07:00Planned Parenthood doesn't have its own brand ...Planned Parenthood doesn't have its own brand of condoms--they sell other brands, LOTS of places sell condoms.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685219634783273971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-45360135227341469812012-02-15T19:45:00.291-07:002012-02-15T19:45:00.291-07:00Johanne, I have had lots of thoughts pop in my min...Johanne, I have had lots of thoughts pop in my mind when reading your comments and now I can't find quite the thing you said that first got those thoughts going, so I won't be able to exactly quote you. I will say that from the opinions you express, you consider contraception to be a good thing for society and in particular for our "health". <br /><br />Now, I am sure you are aware of the fact that some methods of bc are in themselves harmful to health, and I think you have mentioned some of these things. But if you think that due to the availability of bc (yes, mostly the Pill which obviously revolutionized the contraception market) our society is healthier I have to ask: Do we live in the same culture?<br /><br />Really, have you seen what 7th graders and younger are watching on TV? Do you see the things that they say on Facebook? Do you notice the incredible debasing of our culture? Do you see how sadly it affects the girls, especially? Sorry, men, sometimes my expectations of you can be quite low, but I have always expected a young lady to act like a lady. If you look around, you will start to see that there is very little, if any, sense at all of behaving like a lady. Girls now talk worse than guys I ever knew, and they reap the treatment that their behavior encourages. Where there are no ladies, there are no gentlemen, and instead women have to deal with men at their worst - which never was a pretty sight and sure isn't now. Just read some of College Student's messages to see how "healthy" our society has become. Add to that the explosion of STD's, which tend to harm women more than men, and not only is our society less healthy, it seems to be in an increasingly rapid decline.<br /><br />So as an observer of our culture, I do not buy the argument that the availability of artificial contraception has made the world a better and healthier place. This observation has nothing to do with religion - it is just an acknowledgement of what is in front of my own eyes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-3913053277563073612012-02-15T19:21:26.249-07:002012-02-15T19:21:26.249-07:00I agree to a degree. But contraception as a thing...I agree to a degree. But contraception as a thing, is simply just a thing. Like the knives in my drawer. It's how they're used that will make them sinful. But unlike NFP, there is no way they can be used for their intended purpose and NOT be sinful. Because their intended purpose as a thing is sinful. <br /><br />NFP is simply information. That information can be used in sinful ways. But information as a thing has no intended purpose, let alone a sinful intended purpose. <br /><br />Anyway, I agree that NFP is not contraceptive, but that information can be used to achieve the same goals as contraception. The mentality of using both NFP and actual contraception - as it is intended to be used - to impede conception for selfish reasons, is what I classify as a contraceptive mentality. <br /><br />Now if Planned Parenthood's condoms are really as ineffective as some have pointed it (I've seen upwards of a 15% failure rate) then I could totally get behind using them as water balloons. They'd break easily enough. ;)Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00726068736912870899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-44751867233468176862012-02-15T15:53:10.712-07:002012-02-15T15:53:10.712-07:00Bethany, thank you! I love how you explained it, a...Bethany, thank you! I love how you explained it, and I would only add the caveat to be careful about using the term "contraceptive mentality." Nothing about NFP can be contraceptive. Is it possible to use NFP to not welcome children into our families because we would rather have creature comforts? Yes, and that is the sin of selfishness. But it's not a contraceptive mentality. <br /><br />I really want to make that distinction, because I used to use that terminology all the time myself before I was corrected. Contraception is a very specific thing and a very specific sin; NFP can be a lot of things, and can be used selfishly, but it is not ever "contraceptive". That is my understanding, at least, and I hope that makes sense! :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-49862427902695860162012-02-15T15:46:12.728-07:002012-02-15T15:46:12.728-07:00Sorry, My computer is NOT loading Everything. Stup...Sorry, My computer is NOT loading Everything. Stupid internet.Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00726068736912870899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-64169439090705220132012-02-15T15:41:25.146-07:002012-02-15T15:41:25.146-07:00My point was that if the Church can show that it i...<i>My point was that if the Church can show that it is doing its best to comply with its own teachings and the law, it will be easier to get the public support needed for a proper exemption to be crafted.</i><br />I am not sure about Catholic Colleges because the pool to draw from would be small, but most dioceses which take care of local Catholic Charities chapters and other local Catholic outreach programs, as well as Many Catholic Hospital Systems, are self-insured, primarily to avoid these issues.Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00726068736912870899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-50182610061262916652012-02-15T15:16:05.568-07:002012-02-15T15:16:05.568-07:00No...if you only have intercourse on your infertil...<i>No...if you only have intercourse on your infertile days...<b>there is no possibility.</b> Modern technologies make it more and more precise and give you more and more accurate information. Choosing to only have sex on those days is rendering your sexual acts infertile. Period.</i><br /><br />With God, all things are possible. And therein lies the difference, Mary. To put it simply. Choosing to NOT have sex when one is fertile is showing God respect for HIS creation (which includes a woman's menstrual cycle, fertile and infertile times). Given the relatively short window of fertility for most women, we are working WITH God and the biology given to us in order to fulfill his Will. Remember avoiding sex on days of fertility in order to prevent pregnancy should be done at the will of God discerned by prayer. <br /><br />Using a contraceptive device, whether it be condoms or a diaphragm or hormonal birth control, is telling God, "Damn, You got it wrong. I should ONLY be fertile when I WANT to get pregnant."<br /><br />It is NOT a sin to NOT have sex. IT is NOT a sin to have sex (in the appropriate context). When one has sex (in the context of her cycle) is irrelevant. <br /><br />The mentality is also sinful, and yes, NFP can be used to that end, shamefully. But NFP doesn't interfere with God's design. <br /><br />Artificial Birth control is sinful when used to prevent pregnancy (as opposed to using condoms like water balloons) because it is THING that interferes, impedes or hinders the natural biological process, that God designed.<br /><br />Contraceptive Mentality is sinful, for obvious reasons.<br /><br />NFP is information. <br /><br /><br />If you use ABC without a contraceptive mentality, it's a sin. <br />If you use ABC with a contraceptive mentality, it's a sin.<br />If you use NFP, it's not a sin.<br />But if you use NFP with a contraceptive mentality it's a sin; because the contraceptive mentality makes it a sin.<br /><br />Does that make sense?<br /><br /><br />Hi all, *waves*Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00726068736912870899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-25614631202682308802012-02-15T13:52:53.301-07:002012-02-15T13:52:53.301-07:00Nubby, good question.Nubby, good question.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-63314566348310340302012-02-15T13:52:31.493-07:002012-02-15T13:52:31.493-07:00@Leila - I agree with that article. That is kind ...@Leila - I agree with that article. That is kind of the whole point I am trying to make.<br /><br />When I say common sense, what I mean is we cannot rely on people to choose the common sense thing and rule a certain way precisely because there is that whole entire agenda on the other side.<br /><br />All I have been arguing is that saying that "This is a clear violation of the 1st Amendment so it will get overturned" is a terrible mistake because the secular movement has so much more invested in this that they will railroad over the 1st Amendment argument or provide the most narrow exception they can muster to pass Constitutional scrutiny. I am saying precisely that we need to be much more proactive with defenses that go beyond "It is free expression of religion."Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10142475137957516460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-63579541270236480952012-02-15T13:51:48.612-07:002012-02-15T13:51:48.612-07:00Nicholas, got it. I will add one more thought: It ...Nicholas, got it. I will add one more thought: It seems like the Left sees this as the Church trying to <i>do</i> or <i>prevent</i> something. As if there has been some threatening movement by the Church in all this. When in fact, there is no movement, nothing asked by the Church at all. We were going along, doing our thing, for the 235 years America has been in existence, and we were happy. Everyone was fine. Nothing was wrong. Suddenly, a proactive (and threatening) move by the Obama admin, for no reason other than ideological, has us all in a tailspin! It's crazy! The nation was not clamoring for this. The administration did not need to do this. <br /><br />Truly unfortunate, very scary. They are the aggressors, the ideologues, and yet they will paint the Church as the one "doing" something to employees and women. And the media will push that leftist narrative.<br /><br />Sad. It really breaks my heart, actually.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-29690359469438574302012-02-15T13:47:30.491-07:002012-02-15T13:47:30.491-07:00Then to which or what sense(s) should we appeal? ...Then to which or what sense(s) should we appeal? If there isn't basic common knowledge, understood and accepted widely, what hope is there for going any higher than common?Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-34267968815680238002012-02-15T13:45:34.703-07:002012-02-15T13:45:34.703-07:00@Leila - Agreed. My admittedly egregious point ab...@Leila - Agreed. My admittedly egregious point about an army is that it is difficult in my estimation to allow the 1st Amendment to be a blanket protection that allows the Church to do anything it wants. There are people in the government and secular society who actually believe the Church is no better, and maybe even worse, that wiccans and jedi.<br /><br />My admittedly flip points about Jedi and Wiccans are that whatever the Government affords the Catholic Church as a religious liberty, it will wind up /having/ to also afford to wiccans and jedi because to do otherwise risks triggering the establishment clause.<br /><br />My thoughts on Obamacare are merely that yes, we should fight this provision tooth and nail, but let's not get sidetracked on the other parts until this is resolved.<br /><br />I'll refrain from further comment unless specifically addressed, since I think we've more than covered most of it :-)Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10142475137957516460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-87382548268122494402012-02-15T13:41:26.921-07:002012-02-15T13:41:26.921-07:00If we can't argue common sense, then where are...If we can't argue common sense, then where are we?<br /><br />Also, here is a good article on the dangers of going down this road:<br /><br />http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=26897Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-14855874179724798212012-02-15T13:36:01.538-07:002012-02-15T13:36:01.538-07:00As I have told my kids for years: America is a gre...As I have told my kids for years: America is a great experiment. But there is no guarantee it will stand, if it veers from its roots.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-7309353637834177442012-02-15T13:35:40.133-07:002012-02-15T13:35:40.133-07:00@Leila - Regarding the gay marriage / Church close...@Leila - Regarding the gay marriage / Church closes its institutions point, agreed. I did not intend to imply the substance but rather the attitude. In other words, both statements boil down to "Too bad for you" regardless of the wrong or right of them.<br /><br />An atheist is not going to lose sleep that the Church suffers a setback.<br /><br />@Nubby - Also agreed, but if the voters want Socialism, they can have it... that is both the beauty and drawback of a democracy.<br /><br />I guess my point, if I have one, is that I dislike arguments that appeal to common sense, because they never work :-p People will often act against it.Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10142475137957516460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-51543304751704182372012-02-15T13:33:41.203-07:002012-02-15T13:33:41.203-07:00Nicholas, because of Christ's mandate, we are ...Nicholas, because of Christ's mandate, we are the largest charitable organization in the world. I think Christ is fine with how it's gone. :) And yes, I'm pretty sure he's okay with the institution of the Church (which he founded) providing those services and hiring workers. It seems bizarre to argue otherwise.<br /><br />As for Obamacare, maybe I am misunderstanding you? The mandate comes from Obamacare, which has a provision that the HHS director can mandate anything as long as she considers it "preventative" care. It's a lot of power in the hands of one woman. She can make it whatever she wants. Very broad. So it is Obamacare directly that is interfering with religious liberty. <br /><br />Raising an army? I think armies and charities/schools are two different entities. Of course, I wouldn't put anything past an atheist who hates the Church. But I think that is a bit far-fetched to worry about at the moment.<br /><br />As for Wiccans, Jedi, etc… The Catholic Church is old and stable and massive and established. She's almost two-thousand years more established than America, and her teachings are no surprise either (and at one time in the not-so-distant past, the same morality was held by all Christians and even other creeds). If that type of old, established religion cannot get protection from the Constitution, then no religion can. Then, let's kiss America good-bye. No joke. <br /><br />And, it may come down to that. Christ never said anything about Christians being comfortable and loved in the world, and I don't believe that American or the Constitution is protected by the Holy Spirit. So, this could come to a very bad end, it's true. No disputing it. But it won't be for lack of Catholics and conservatives trying to educate the populace about why America was founded.<br /><br />All we can do is try, and then we see what people want. If they prefer free contraception to freedom and religious liberty, then so be it. But it won't be the same America once we start down that path. And, many on the Left are A-okay with that.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-19858948224209314842012-02-15T13:22:38.122-07:002012-02-15T13:22:38.122-07:00We live in a Politically Correct world, so people ...<i>We live in a Politically Correct world, so people will naturally feel better about inclusive actions being good and are taught that exclusive actions are bad </i><br /><br />Well, that's a shame, Nicholas, because inclusiveness is the way to socialism. We are being forced into "one size fits all" because it's just swell for everyone, it's the best idea for everyone, and not fair otherwise. Sarcasm, but you get it.<br /><br />It would be very unfortunate for all of those entities to close and jobs go buh-bye. Oh, and great for the economy too. Not.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-80582677778208413662012-02-15T13:20:34.099-07:002012-02-15T13:20:34.099-07:00@Leila - The only problem I have is that this disc...@Leila - The only problem I have is that this discussion is talking about a lot of different things at the same time - religious freedom, limited vs expansive federal powers, strict constructionist concepts, etc. and it is somewhat difficult to talk about that way, but fine.<br /><br />A broad an interpretation of religious liberty as you suggest opens the door to chaos doesn't it? Because that will wind up applying to Wiccans and Jedi as well. There are actually crazy religions out there as well as the Catholic Church, and a lot of people don't see a difference.<br /><br />What is next after schools and hospitals? What if the Church tells us to raise an Army? Is that protected? You may say it is a stupid question, but won't atheists make the case if this goes to federal court under an argument that "free exercise of religion means that anything run by the Church is protected as religious activity?"<br /><br />I don't understand your response under my point C. There are no fines and jail time being discussed... We are not talking about Obamacare :-p We are talking about the specific rule and exception (or lack thereof) about contraceptive care which is a different debate.<br /><br />Enumerated powers and small government arguments against Obamacare are all well and good... But aren't part of this particular blog entry about defending Mother Church from a specific evil ruling that is not part of Obamacare.<br /><br />And if I may be cheeky for a moment, is our religious mandate to care for the sick, or to hire people to do it for us?<br /><br />Now I am not seriously arguing that the Catholic Church should not run hospitals... but in all honesty, if the religious principle is really that Jesus wants us to care for our brothers, me dropping some money in a collection basket each week, or even tithing, so that the Church can build a hospital and hire non-Catholic doctors, nurses, and janitors to staff it isn't really what I think Jesus had in mind, although your mileage may vary.Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10142475137957516460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-77603952326332984022012-02-15T13:01:08.051-07:002012-02-15T13:01:08.051-07:00But to be fair, when people on this blog have expr...<i>But to be fair, when people on this blog have expressed the idea that every gay man has the same right to marry as does any straight man, that is to say the right to marry any woman that will have him... That is no different than suggesting that Church has the right to choose to not operate schools and hospitals if it doesn't like the rules.</i><br /><br />Um, not exactly. Because the gay couple can still go on living with and having sexual activity with the partner of his choice, just as always. The Church, on the other hand, will have to close down its institutions and ministries. It must cease, because it has no choice to go on as before.<br /><br />(And it also doesn't take into account what a "right" is and where "rights" come from.)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-89554323003001996852012-02-15T12:56:26.380-07:002012-02-15T12:56:26.380-07:00Nicholas, you said: That blog expresses a very cog...Nicholas, you said: <i>That blog expresses a very cogent point of view. But that does not mean that POV will ultimately prevail.</i><br /><br />No one is saying it will prevail (we may be too far gone as a nation), but that it <i>should</i> prevail.<br /><br />Also, you said: <i>...you will need to convince people that running a hospital or hiring janitors under different rules than everyone else is "the free exercise of religion." </i><br /><br />Our religious mandate from Christ is to care for the sick, help the poor, etc. Our institutions are part of our religious mandate. It's not just that the Church decides to run a business. It is a living out of our faith. And when we cannot do so without cooperating in grave sin, then the feds have crossed the line. <br /><br />As far as dumb people who don't understand our nation's foundations:<br /><br /><i>c) Fed requires that Health Insurance Company offers everyone on their rolls that does not get contraceptive coverage a supplemental plan without charging extra.</i><br /><br />This alone should make everyone's radar start beeping! If we understood the concept of limited federal gov't, and enumerated powers, we would all say… whoa, this is out of line! And in fact, it's so out of line that this has never happened before. When has the federal gov't forced its citizens, upon pain of ruinous fines or even jail, to purchase services or products against their will and religious convictions?<br /><br />It's really as simple as that. But the average apathetic, poorly educated young <br />American (who likes to get free stuff!), has no clue. I blame the education establishment as much as anyone. I get why the ideologues like Obama want to push through with this, but the rest of the populace is not ideological, just utterly ignorant. They like "free" and they like casual sex, too.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-58241184515797752142012-02-15T12:54:47.908-07:002012-02-15T12:54:47.908-07:00Nicholas,
The church IS being forced to purchase a...Nicholas,<br />The church IS being forced to purchase and provide insurance under ObamaCare. What alternative is there except to close the hospitals, schools, churches, etc?Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-18009162514995035052012-02-15T12:51:59.099-07:002012-02-15T12:51:59.099-07:00@Nubby -
When you said to Johanne "Freedom ...@Nubby - <br /><br />When you said to Johanne "Freedom of choice for gays but no freedom of choice for the church. <br />A pertinent comparison it is" you forgot the main rule of government entitlement theory - you can always give more but you cannot take away :-p<br /><br />We live in a Politically Correct world, so people will naturally feel better about inclusive actions being good and are taught that exclusive actions are bad -- without ever examining the moral values of the subject at hand.<br /><br />But to be fair, when people on this blog have expressed the idea that every gay man has the same right to marry as does any straight man, that is to say the right to marry any woman that will have him... That is no different than suggesting that Church has the right to choose to not operate schools and hospitals if it doesn't like the rules.Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10142475137957516460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-50087743695412420252012-02-15T12:38:35.818-07:002012-02-15T12:38:35.818-07:00@Nubby - The Church is NOT forced to buy health in...@Nubby - The Church is NOT forced to buy health insurance. The problem is that the Church owns and operates /businesses/ like schools and hospitals, and those kinds of things that have employees and all that jazz are subject to all manner of regulation.<br /><br />The have your cake and eat it too adage applies to us as well. We are defining "Church" as pretty much everything the Catholic Church wants it to be, and while that may be nice, that is not necessarily going to fly legally.<br /><br />The argument that I have put forth about pooled money and obfuscation, is as far as I can see the mainstream objection. It sounds to me like you favor something far more sweeping.<br /><br />But the problem there is you will need to convince people that running a hospital or hiring janitors under different rules than everyone else is "the free exercise of religion." I find that to be a fairly difficult argument to support, although I am sure it can be made.<br /><br />Any exception that is made will wind up being narrow (unless the Republicans get enough political clout to reverse the entire thing for their own reasons).<br /><br />I do not see this ending with any kind of ruling that the Church can operate subsidiary businesses however it pleases and be immune to government regulation.Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10142475137957516460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-32779534617704810532012-02-15T12:38:31.554-07:002012-02-15T12:38:31.554-07:00JoAnna
Thank you for putting forth a cogent argume...JoAnna<br />Thank you for putting forth a cogent argument.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685219634783273971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-74195615953538301852012-02-15T12:34:12.263-07:002012-02-15T12:34:12.263-07:00These two situations are not in any way comparable...<i>These two situations are not in any way comparable.</i><br /><br />Johanne,<br /><br />Freedom of choice for gays but no freedom of choice for the church. <br />A pertinent comparison it is.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.com