tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post8404721560766557335..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: I'm not buying the false dichotomyLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-24167946190599993262014-06-16T08:14:05.587-07:002014-06-16T08:14:05.587-07:00Johanne, an annulment process cannot even be comme...Johanne, an annulment process cannot even be commenced until and unless a civil divorce has already been granted. So, it's hard to say, since the family is already broken. I think the fact that an annulment process is begun is already a tragedy. But if there were no annulment process, the divorce would still have happened, so to the child, the damage of a broken family is already there.<br /><br />The Church's role in annulments is simply to hear the case of a divorced party who is convinced that the sacrament was never valid in the first place. It is a difficult, often multi-year process (an investigation) that is arduous and emotional. It seeks to get at the truth of the bond. But it's not for the faint of heart. Not a quick and easy thing, like a divorce. During the process, it's not like the couple is together. They have already split. And if the tribunal were to decide that the marriage bond is sound, it could in no way force the couple to move back together or remarry, civilly. It is very unlikely that they would end the separation. The broken, divorced family would continue on that way. Very sad all the way around.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-39150520016731155682014-06-16T00:20:58.322-07:002014-06-16T00:20:58.322-07:00Leila
Are annulments less damaging to children tha...Leila<br />Are annulments less damaging to children than divorces?Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861467738117604139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-3774947229351000362014-06-15T08:12:52.117-07:002014-06-15T08:12:52.117-07:00Again, I need to clarify to be crystal clear. Inno...Again, I need to clarify to be crystal clear. Innocent parties are abandoned. In these cases, or cases of abuse, things cannot always be worked out. The innocent party (or the one trying to work it out) cannot do anything to save the marriage if the other party leaves. That is the true evil of no-fault divorce. It often leaves the innocent spouse (meaning, a generally decent spouse, who does not want a divorce) with no options. It makes marriage disposable. This idea that because we are "unhappy", we are justified in leaving and trying again… it's corrosive. It's not Catholic. It's not reality. Marriage is not about romance and butterflies. But if only one spouse is willing to try, and the other leaves, then what can one do? It's a helpless situation…<br /><br />Okay, off to mass. I hope I was clear. If not, challenge me and I will try again.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-23342926127923739332014-06-15T08:02:21.327-07:002014-06-15T08:02:21.327-07:00I should clarify: The friends I helped with annul...I should clarify: The friends I helped with annulment issues are two women, not a "couple" themselves… So, it was two separate marriages/divorces I'm talking about. Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-88656156933631486732014-06-15T08:01:12.144-07:002014-06-15T08:01:12.144-07:00Dianna, it makes you someone who lives in a fallen...Dianna, it makes you someone who lives in a fallen world. I have helped two friends (very close) work through their annulment paperwork. I have watched their children suffer, as neither one wanted to do this to their children, and would have worked it out if possible. Their children have definitely suffered. But the annulments were granted and they were warranted. No doubt about it. Still a complete tragedy for the children and yes, for the single moms. They have not had easy lives at all. I won't get into the details of course, but red flags everywhere.<br /><br />I don't expect you to answer personal questions (not my business to pry!), but I guess my general question to something like this is was the man a decent man? Did you both try to work it out? If you were trying and he wasn't, then yes, I can see why it could be impossible to keep together (in some cases, the men simply leave…). If both husband and wife are (as my original post stated) "responsible and stable", there really is no reason that two people who chose each other and also brought children into the world would not be able to work on themselves and become better spouses. It is an act of the will, no? If not, then what is our faith? I want to really stress that I <i>understand</i> if both parties are not willing. It can be impossible to make it work if both parties are not working together, if they do not make a decision that they will commit and stick it out and get through the tough spots. <br /><br />Again, I am assuming there is no abuse, and that safety is not an issue. I am also assuming general decency on the part of both adults. <br /><br />But please know, I have seen myriad bad marriages, and I love the people involved. There are no perfect marriages. And if it gets to the point where it cannot be worked out (due to abuse or one spouse unwilling), then yes, a Catholic has the right to take it to the tribunal for investigation.<br /><br />But it's still a tragedy. Not a positive good. Especially for the children. I hope we can agree on that. Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-82840683327453871642014-06-15T07:31:08.663-07:002014-06-15T07:31:08.663-07:00Lelia,
long time reader, first time commenter.
...Lelia, <br /><br />long time reader, first time commenter. <br /><br />Although I'm completely in your camp -- we need a renewal of hearts and minds about marriage - I couldn't help but feel a wee bit uncomfortable when reading your post. <br /><br />I came from a divorced family. I saw first hand the heartache and turmoil that affected all of the children. I vowed as a young girl that I WOULD NOT do that to a family. <br /><br />Fast forward to my early twenties. I got married right out of college, after a whirlwind courtship -- we went through Pre-Cana (a joke in my area), compatibility testing (FOCUS, I think) as well as private instructions/meeting with our priest. I had been baptized Catholic, but not raised in the Church. Our marriage prep was a combination of private RCIA and the other prep work. <br /><br />My marriage fell apart after my oldest daughter was born, for reasons I'd rather not discuss publicly, and after a year of therapy, talking with our priest, we divorced. I was heartbroken. This was not in my 'game plan for life'. <br /><br />I started working on my annulment packet after a year or two. Boy. That's a giant undertaking, as you're answering deeply personal questions about your family background, your relationship, your spouse's relationship, etc. I could only digest it in small doses. <br /><br />Long story short, I was granted my annulment, and went on to marry again in the Church, adding 5 more sweet babies to our family. Having gone through the annulment process, I realize that I shouldn't have gotten married the first time around. I carried an amazing amount of baggage from my childhood and wasn't emotionally mature enough to be married. I've been in therapy for years, learning to deal with the aftermath of my childhood, learning how to set boundaries and put healthy coping skills into practice. <br /><br />So, where does your comment leave people like me?<br /><br />"Nope! Sorry! These are children's lives. You brought them into your marriage, and yes you can work it out. In fact, you must."<br /><br />I tried to work it out, and failed. Then, I followed our Church's teachings and moved on, still caring for my daughter. I remarried, and am living out my vocation as a wife and mother. <br /><br />Does that make me a 'selfish adult'? <br />Dianna@The Kennedy Adventureshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12500717403567536590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-1645015221132538002014-06-15T06:37:06.236-07:002014-06-15T06:37:06.236-07:00"I think the most helpful thing to do is prev..."I think the most helpful thing to do is prevent the situations from happening--discourage people who don't want children from having intercourse."<br /><br />On this we can agree. Unfortunately, the culture has swung to the extreme of encouraging casual sex, and even expecting it for teens (and in the case of Planned Parenthood and its many, many ideological allies -- even encouraging teens to have <br />"fun" with sex and sexual exploration). So, we have a huge problem. If the culture at large respected marriage again, saw it as something serious and permanent, we'd be in a better place. No fault divorce is a scourge, and again, if that were not available, there would be countless fewer divorces.<br /><br />I agree that the level of immaturity and selfishness today makes many people unsuited for marriage. It's a tragedy. You will be happy to know (I think!) that in my diocese, there is a nine-month marriage prep requirement for couples. It's quite thorough (my husband and I go over the compatibility evaluations with couples in our parish, and that is one small part of the overall program and prep). In most diocese in America, the marriage prep requirement is six months at least.<br /><br />"No one prefers their parents get divorced"<br /><br />When I said this, I said it as a generalization. We have to generalize or we cannot speak (see below). Yes, I am sure that there are kids who would prefer a broken family, being shuffled between two homes all week, spending holidays apart from a parent or with new step-parents and step-siblings they just met, or spending the rest of their lives even into adulthood with the stress and tension that many of my readers described clearly (and similarly!) above -- all to get out of a house where the parents are not "tender" to each other or where there is tension (your scenario).<br /><br />Yes, there may be children who want that. I don't know who they would be, but yes, I cannot speak for every single child on the face of the planet. <br /><br />But when I say things like that, it's like when I say, "Nobody likes eating bugs!" Clearly, some people do like eating bugs, but I think people get my general point. I wrote something about generalizing a while back, and every now and then I throw it out, because I think it's important:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2010/09/generalizing-is-not-bad-thing.html<br /><br />Anyway, I hope that doesn't come off as harsh. I just woke up, and I never know exactly how I come off when I am still half-zombie-like. ;)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-26992298088851479772014-06-15T02:02:44.074-07:002014-06-15T02:02:44.074-07:00No one prefers their parents get divorced
I have ...<i>No one prefers their parents get divorced</i><br /><br />I have trouble with these sweepings statements: because they're not true. Some people <i>do</i> want their parents to get divorced. It's sad, but it's true. How can you speak for every person on the planet who has parents?<br /><br />And this: <br />"Again, there is a third choice: The adults get it together."<br />I think that is a preferred choice but in many cases it's not a possibility.<br /><br />For two people who once loved each but now feel strong antagonism--it takes <i>enormous</i> maturity, sacrifice, and commitment to spend years together, ignoring their natural needs for intimacy (no longer met in the marriage). <br /><br />On the other hand, it takes about five minutes and requires no maturity whatsoever to create a pregnancy or to get a marriage license. Therefore there is no logical reason to assume that any person who has a child and is married has the ability to be committed, to make sacrifice, to be generous toward their children, or be emotionally mature on any level. It's sad, but it's true.<br /><br />So in many unhappy marriages there may NOT a choice to "get it together," even if the intention is there.<br /><br />I think the most helpful thing to do is prevent the situations from happening--discourage people who don't want children from having intercourse. <br />And make it less easy to become married.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861467738117604139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-33200027582391088422014-06-14T14:12:49.152-07:002014-06-14T14:12:49.152-07:00Johanne, thanks! Actually, I think this is also a ...Johanne, thanks! Actually, I think this is also a false dichotomy:<br /><br />"There are people who are glad their parents got divorced--it was so much more peaceful than feeling the tension between them."<br /><br />Again, there is a third choice: The adults get it together.<br /><br />I don't know if I have ever met anyone personally who wished their parents would get divorced if there was not something horrific going on in the house. Looking at the comments above, and from all my experience, I don't think that's common at all. "Hey, there is no tenderness between my parents; I think we need to break-up our family." I think the children would prefer tenderness to no tenderness, of course, but my goodness, that is a high bar to keep a marriage together! If we are not tender, if there is tension (what marriage doesn't go through that?), then we divorce and the kids will be relieved. <--- that does not make any sense to me.<br /><br />My husband was the product of a very non-tender marriage. They had a very tense and unhappy marriage. In no way would he have preferred to have been raised in a divorced home. They divorced when their two kids were adults, and Dean has been forever grateful for that. <br /><br />Marriage should be permanent, especially because marriage is about children (there would be no reason for this universal thing we call "marriage" if humans reproduced asexually and children took care of themselves from birth). It's a little confusing to write out in a combox, but sacraments cannot be undone. If two Christians are married validly, there is no power on earth that can undo that (Jesus said, "What God has joined, let no man separate"). But non-baptized persons also can have valid (if non-sacramental) marriages. I spoke a bit about that above in the comments. All marriage should be taken seriously, and should be considered permanent. If we had a society that took marriage seriously (as seriously as societies should and as we used to), then there would be fewer children adrift and hurting.<br /><br />So, you are right that we seem to get married too quickly. But I promise you, folks would get married less flippantly if there were no no-fault divorce (which mostly has hurt women and children). <br /><br />Bottom line: Sin causes hurt. Sin is the reason for suffering in personal relationships. Let's get rid of the sin, not the marriage. <br /><br />Yes, please do read the entire thread. The comments are painful, but enlightening. No one prefers their parents get divorced. They want their parents to be adults, and do the right thing. That is something we do not stress in society anymore, by a long shot. It's why we are sinking, and fast.<br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-27724816997085265212014-06-14T04:09:45.871-07:002014-06-14T04:09:45.871-07:00When a couple stays together, even without care an...When a couple stays together, even without care and respect, I agree they are modeling commitment for their children, and that can be a helpful thing. But is it a good thing to show their children, day after day, a relationship where there is no tenderness? Every situation is complicated; in some instances it might be the better choice to stay married no matter what. But it isn't always.<br /><br />There are people who are glad their parents got divorced--it was so much more peaceful than feeling the tension between them. <br /><br />I don't agree with, or understand, the negativity toward no-fault divorce. I think the real problem is that getting married is so simple. People can get married in 15 minutes in a drive-through chapel in Las Vegas. Does it make sense to say that anyone with a marriage license should stay together for all time?<br /><br />Or maybe you're just saying they should stay together if they have children? I get confused about Catholicism's rules about matrimony vs civil marriage. It is only against Catholic doctrine to get divorced from someone you married in the Church? I think you explained all that already--I haven't'read the whole thread carefully and maybe the answers are already there.<br /><br />If getting a marriage license is so simple it should be simple to get out of it. Maybe it shouldn't be so simple to get married.<br /><br />Some random thoughts.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861467738117604139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-1125554649726755962014-06-13T20:33:05.429-07:002014-06-13T20:33:05.429-07:00Lena, good point!
Chantal, you were right not to ...Lena, good point!<br /><br />Chantal, you were right not to marry if you could not fulfill the requirements of a true marriage. But I am confused… do the kids have a new father now, but you did not marry at all?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-39724925948856811622014-06-13T20:00:50.484-07:002014-06-13T20:00:50.484-07:00And then there is me. Getting involved in a relati...And then there is me. Getting involved in a relationship and having a child out of wedlock. I knew it wasn't the right relationship and shouldn't have gotten involved. I knew we would separate and the thought of marriage made my heart scream "NO" I couldn't get married. I felt it would actually have been a mockery of marriage, since I would be getting married knowing that we would separate. He was/is venomously anti-religion. Talking about God to the children is like a form a child abuse. We are separated and it is difficult. I still think that for the situation it was what was best for the children. The relationship was emotionally abusive with the possibility of it being more. The children actually have a better father now and we are free to talk about faith. And for myself I'm happy being single and will probably remain so.Chantalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00184616275088281652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-87288316894405575002014-06-13T17:51:12.050-07:002014-06-13T17:51:12.050-07:00A man I knew said he put new tires on his wife'...A man I knew said he put new tires on his wife's car before winter in the Midwest because she has a long commute. That IS love. Nothing romantic or pretty about tires, but the taking care of her safety is an act of love and a sign of a gentleman. <br /><br />Regarding bridesmaid with tattoo - yes, I think tattoos should be covered up in church.<br /><br />Regarding that particular tattoo - I see that quote as sticking to your values and not giving into peer pressure to do dangerous things or the evils of society. I think it would be wrong for a marriage-minded man to pass her over. Instead, if you're a guy, ask her about it. What was she thinking when she got it? Maybe she'll reveal something substantial about herself. Maybe you'll get to know her on a deeper level instead of just judging her by her appearance. People go through phases and stages in their lives plus there are fads and some are silly. Look deeper. <br /><br />"Lena"Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09776429121627563319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-52667051854060959142014-06-13T12:52:09.236-07:002014-06-13T12:52:09.236-07:00Sebastian, you make a very good point. I can't...Sebastian, you make a very good point. I can't argue with that.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-2852876342022125702014-06-13T12:50:52.493-07:002014-06-13T12:50:52.493-07:00Although, now that I re-read what you and Andrew b...Although, now that I re-read what you and Andrew both said, I have to agree that Andrew didn't get your point. You are <i>already</i> able to get sex from him, and he's attracted to you and has that passion for you! You are asking for things like flowers and notes and little gestures of love that are not just "sex" or a prelude to sex. Andrew, comment? Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-60421620163749427562014-06-13T12:47:34.199-07:002014-06-13T12:47:34.199-07:00Yes, it's a very quick book to read! You will ...Yes, it's a very quick book to read! You will start to see the light after about five minutes, but it may take you a day to read the book. :) Very quick read, and you will be engrossed! <br /><br />As for romance, we women tend to want things of our man that are akin to what is seen on chick flicks or romance novels. Some have called that "female porn" as it puts very unrealistic expectations on very good husbands. They really don't think like we do, and it's okay. God made us different, and we have to embrace those differences and love each other anyway. ;)<br /><br />I'll be praying for you, and please report back once you have read the book!! I had forgotten that I did a follow-up post on that book recommendation and here it is, full of really great and hopeful responses!<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2013/10/follow-up-to-my-save-your-marriage-in.htmlLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-6992399711614708862014-06-13T12:12:08.261-07:002014-06-13T12:12:08.261-07:00I don't get all this annulment business (separ...I don't get all this annulment business (separation for abuse I do get). If you're Catholic (or non-Catholic marrying Catholic), you had to go through marriage prep to even be married in the Church. The priest would normally make sure that the conditions for marriage are fulfilled (he can't be sure of course, but the couple cannot claim ignorance). But even if the marriage is invalid in the Church's eyes, the kids are still there. Do they really care whether the marriage was valid or not? They will be devastated either way. So I don't understand how there can be so many annulments, which often really are only sought to marry another (next blow to the kids). I'm surely missing something here. I hope it's not just a fine theological point. Kids have a right to their parents (barring abuse), so the parents better get their act together, valid marriage or not. And I wish the Church was clear on that.Sebastianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03993048824594772782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-88781245041129161482014-06-13T11:46:53.580-07:002014-06-13T11:46:53.580-07:00Thanks again for all your concern and suggestions....Thanks again for all your concern and suggestions. Andrew, I think you kinda missed my point about romance, but it has given me a glimpse into what "romance" means to a man. Maybe my husband and I are just talking past each other on that one. At any rate, I have no doubt that my husband is physically attracted to me. I need to know he is emotionally attracted to me. But again, your comment made me realize that maybe I'm saying one thing to himand he's hearing another, so thanks for that!<br /><br />Sarah, thanks for your input too. It's good to hear that some of my issues are just "normal people" issues. I know the alcoholism isn't my fault and I did not ask to be an alcoholic, but sometimes I still blame myself for the choices I made. It's good to know it's not all about the alcoholism and that "normal" couples have some of the same issues.<br /><br />And lastly, Leila, I have put in a request for that book at the library. Apparently it's quite the popular book because all the copies are checked out and there is a wait list to get it. I'll get it eventually and hopefully I can carve out some time to read it. You mentioned that I may only need 5 minutes, so here's hoping :)<br /><br />Thanks again everyone for all your care and concern. CCShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04235689063665618572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-36282881268594816632014-06-13T11:33:03.029-07:002014-06-13T11:33:03.029-07:00Nubby, thanks for making the clarification. Absolu...Nubby, thanks for making the clarification. Absolutely, 100% agreed. When I said "a couple is committed", I literally meant the couple. Both spouses. <br /><br />If a spouse is abandoned, that is a tragedy -- the faithful spouse can be completely committed, but it takes two. <br /><br />So, yes, that clarification is incredibly important!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-86501768234859407792014-06-13T11:28:10.450-07:002014-06-13T11:28:10.450-07:00"The only difference between people who divor...<i>"The only difference between people who divorce and those who don't is commitment?</i>"<br /><br />I see the general principle here, but I don't know about the broad application. This would mean that those spouses who were actually committed, yet were left for another, are somehow implicated as not committed, when they really had no option.<br /><br /> <i>"If a couple is committed, they don't divorce. </i>"<br /><br />On the whole, when you're talking mutually desired divorce, I agree, Leila. Yes, if *the couple* is committed, they don't divorce.<br />But a truer picture includes the ones who did not want a divorce, yet found themselves in that situation. Divorce discussion has to include the exception: those who are divorced who do not wish to be. They were committed. Yet, they were left. <br />Reconciliation and re-commitment to the marriage weren't even options. I would say we have to include this, when we're talking why or how divorce occurs. Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-82068985849741474052014-06-13T11:20:41.647-07:002014-06-13T11:20:41.647-07:00You are absolutely right about the scourge of no-f...You are absolutely right about the scourge of no-fault divorce. Absolutely devastating to families. <br /><br />As far as the tribunals, there is (in my understanding) no separate criteria for non-Catholic marriages. A marriage between two baptized Protestants (assuming they were free to marry in the first place) is as much a sacrament as two Catholic marrying in the Church (even if the Protestants don't understand marriage as a sacrament). The same impediments would have to be there for a declaration of nullity to be given. But you are right that a lot of the non-Catholics bringing their cases for annulments have circumstances that may make it easier to see that it was not a valid marriage to begin with -- maybe they had multiple marriages, maybe they had married a Catholic outside of the Church previously (and that would be invalid since the Catholic has an obligation to marry in the Church), etc. For Catholics who want to get right with the Church, the annulment may be no more than a "quick form" acknowledgement that the Catholic had never validly been married before since it was performed outside the Church. In those cases, it's not like a declaration of nullity for a (presumed) sacramental Church wedding (which can take years to get through the tribunal, and often for good reason).<br /><br />Sin and the fallen world complicate everything, sigh….Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-64534248814640230212014-06-13T10:42:44.950-07:002014-06-13T10:42:44.950-07:00The American situation is different than many othe...The American situation is different than many other parts of the world. First, there is no dominant Catholic culture here. In previous generations, Catholics usually married Catholics within their own ethnic group. Everyone knew you got married for life. <br /><br />Now, Catholics don't live in ethnic enclaves as previous generations did. They often marry non-Catholics. Many of these non-Catholics come from backgrounds where divorce is permissible under certain circumstances, <br /><br />Secondly, the marriage culture has changed dramatically with the advent of no-fault divorce. Most people getting married today were born during the decades in which divorce was common and acceptable. Catholics aren't completely immune from absorbing the culture. That's where good teaching on marriage must come in during the teen years.<br /><br />Finally, I'd venture to say that many of the people seeking annulments are coming from secular and non-Catholic backgrounds in order to marry Catholics. Hopefully, the tribunals take that into consideration when looking at the validity of marriages. I'd say that most non-Catholic marriages are not valid when using Catholic criteria to judge (most protestants allow divorce and remarriage).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06581928154414435352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-23936103229396760382014-06-13T10:09:37.360-07:002014-06-13T10:09:37.360-07:00LifeHopes, yes, an annulment means a marriage neve...LifeHopes, yes, an annulment means a marriage never actually took place. Part of me is appalled that the annulment rate is so high in the US; another part of me realizes that so few people come to marriage with an understanding of its permanence and meaning that of course there are so many annulments. It's a tough situation.<br /><br />Monica, great point!<br /><br />Jessica, it's very fascinating! But doesn't it still all boil down to what I mentioned earlier? The only difference between people who divorce and those who don't is commitment? If a couple is committed, they don't divorce. I know there are factors that go into <i>why</i> people remain committed or don't, but ultimately, wouldn't almost everyone be divorced if they did not understand that they were making a commitment for life? <br /><br />I actually almost gasp when I realize how many Catholic make their marriage vows (VOWS!) before God Almighty, and they don't really mean them… not really. <br /><br />And actually, the same could be said about baptism vows. I was guilty of being a mom who didn't really care much about the baptism vows I made before God, because I wasn't going to mass and I didn't obey the moral law. So weird to look back on it. What was I thinking?? A vow before God, and I was so lackadaisical. <br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-49743193900455324832014-06-13T09:27:36.723-07:002014-06-13T09:27:36.723-07:00Marriage is hard, but worth it with kids involved....Marriage is hard, but worth it with kids involved. My DH and I both have divorced parents -- which is a risk factor for divorce, you are more likely to stay married if your parents have never divorced -- and we've definitely had struggles. I've done a lot of reading on marriage rates, and it's really very complicated as to what keeps people together. Conservative, Bible-belt states have the highest rate of divorce. The lowest rates are in the Northeast. Divorce is HIGHLY correlated with income -- couples are far less likely to divorce if they have incomes over $75K. Catholics have the lowest rate of divorce of the major religious groups (tied with Lutherans), which seems to indicate that even more secular, less observant Catholics (as in the Northeast) have more commitment to marriage (pre-marital counseling is often cited as a factor). But Asians have the lowest rate of all ethnic groups. Conservative evangelicals have high rate of divorce, higher than other Christian groups and higher than agnostics and atheists. Also, college graduates -- of all ethnicities, faiths, etc. -- have a much lower divorce rate than non college graduates. I put this all out there because I think divorce is FAR more complicated than a throw away culture or selfish adults. I don't think low-income people or non college grads are inherently more selfish, yet they divorce at much higher rates. Jessica D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09725665364963980396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-29134063855055800012014-06-13T00:37:29.226-07:002014-06-13T00:37:29.226-07:00I read an interesting article several months ago a...I read an interesting article several months ago about a new "trend" in divorce, I think it was called bird nesting or something... where there is a shared "home" where the child lives permanently, and then an apartment where the parent who is not on child duty stays. So the child has a so-called stable home, and the parents move back and forth every other week or whatever the arrangement is. It was brought up on a homeschool forum I read, and the response was overwhelmingly- "That is unlivable! That is impossible! Imagine the inconvenience!" - My reply was, "Well, now you know how children of divorce feel!!!"Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11501575551066939483noreply@blogger.com