tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post8028809518431369161..comments2024-03-09T00:51:33.602-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Here's the almost-L.A.Times article...Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger151125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-12519637876224749482012-02-20T19:20:39.853-07:002012-02-20T19:20:39.853-07:00Johanne,
FYI, I am a person who struggles continuo...Johanne,<br />FYI, I am a person who struggles continuously with faith. Sometimes it is really just not there...but I have run the gamut and am in science and now am trying to live a life of faith. (Lutheran)<br />But, the more I live in a faithless world, the more I am convinced of the neccesity of absolute truth, and the more I reflect on the (huge and terrible) errors I have made in my life, I realize how they went against the tenants of Christianity. I also think Christianity is correct about original sin, now that i have lived a bit.<br /><br />Try reading Kenneth Miller (leading biologist and believer) or Polkinhorne (Physicist) or Walker Percy...or try John Wright the sci-fi writer. Leila turned me on to him. (He can be a bit caustic...but I think I know someone just like him, so I forgive him for it....he does apologize often on his blog.)maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05613163382453563548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-79614041788076167432012-02-20T07:02:20.169-07:002012-02-20T07:02:20.169-07:00@Johanne - If the only abortions ever performed we...@Johanne - If the only abortions ever performed were ones where the life of the mother were truly in danger, I would actually be pretty darned content, because it would probably be like 10 a year rather than 800,000+ (in the US alone).<br /><br />The problem with legislation that has exceptions carved into it, is because we'd still have 800,000+ abortions each year with every single one signed off on by a doctor as being medically necessary.<br /><br />Now, also if we are talking about examinations morality in an academic sense, if the situation is something like In order to save your own life, you have to take the life of an innocent, then it is still immoral to do so.<br /><br />While academic discussion isn't the same as real world sitautions... it still applies. Yes, people do the wrong thing every day, and sometimes may feel like there is no other option... But we can't lose sight that it is still the wrong thing.Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10142475137957516460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-78887051515907765662012-02-18T19:07:34.633-07:002012-02-18T19:07:34.633-07:00But on what do you base the premise that The Catho...But on what do you base the premise that The Catholic Church alone defends "all" that is good and true. How do you know that? Or do you just feel it? I'm really curious.<br /><br />Johanne,<br />Leila gave you a great answer, but to reply to your question I'll just add a personal note:<br />I, personally, did not arrive at Catholicism based on "feeling". <br />It was my intellect that had to be fed on dry facts (remedial, actually) like Church history, salvation history, scripture, Jesus, etc., before I returned to the Church. Then the emotions followed. But the emotions didn't drive the decision. <br />Emotions are part of the whole person, but if we all merely arrived at the Church doors on emotion alone, we'd all have fizzled out on feelings a long time ago. The real staying power of being Catholic requires intellectual ascent (even during the celebration of the Mass), so that one doesn't just get caught up in a consumerist attitude about anything inside the Church (ie, liking or disliking certain priests, certain choir songs, certain aspects of worship, etc.). It's just as easy to leave the Church for emotional reasons as it is to join it for emotional reasons. <br /><br />Faith and Reason - in Catholicism, these are two wings of the same bird.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-38704691830631524632012-02-18T18:42:46.596-07:002012-02-18T18:42:46.596-07:00Just because it's topical, I'll throw this...Just because it's topical, I'll throw this in:<br /><br />Cardinal-designate Dolan: Natural Law, Not Religious Preference, Dictates All Life Sacred, here:<br /><br />http://www.cny.org/stories/Cardinal-designate-Dolan-Natural-Law-Not-Religious-Preference-Dictates-All-Life-Sacred-,6934<br /><br />(Opposition to abortion is not a religious issue, it's a natural law, human issue.)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-49405875301986904572012-02-18T17:53:41.771-07:002012-02-18T17:53:41.771-07:00Johanne, you're welcome! But remember, they ar...Johanne, you're welcome! But remember, they are not my thoughts or opinions. I just hand on what was handed on. It's unbroken truth, and I am just grateful to have learned it, just trying to pass it along myself. It's for everyone in every era. <br /><br />The base question that everyone must answer is the one that Jesus posed about Himself:<br /><br />"Who do you say that I am?"Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-55520968212926925182012-02-18T17:46:51.970-07:002012-02-18T17:46:51.970-07:00@Leila
Thank you for your thoughts about the Cath...@Leila<br /><br />Thank you for your thoughts about the Catholic Church.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685219634783273971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-723548124381207612012-02-18T16:22:26.245-07:002012-02-18T16:22:26.245-07:00Sorry for the myriad typos above, ugh!!!!
Johanne...Sorry for the myriad typos above, ugh!!!!<br /><br />Johanne, you said:<br /><br /><i>You could say (and I do say) that when your goal is for the fetus to grow into a baby</i><br /><br />The "fetus" <i>is</i> already a baby ("fetus" means "little one"). The fetus already exists. It already has his life. Goodness, it's already a boy or a girl! So the question then is only this: Do we <i>kill</i> that little one, or do we allow it to stay alive? <br /><br />You would say it's okay to kill the little one. We Catholics say that no one has the right to take the life of an innocent. <br /><br />So you see it has nothing to do with a "goal". The human being <i>is already there</i>.<br /><br />As LJP asked of you: "Which is the greater injustice: murder or emotional harm?"Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-4034506482962383262012-02-18T16:08:49.345-07:002012-02-18T16:08:49.345-07:00But on what do you base the premise that The Catho...<i>But on what do you base the premise that The Catholic Church alone defends "all" that is good and true. How do you know that? Or do you just feel it? I'm really curious. </i><br /><br />We base it on the promise of Christ, who is Truth. He is God. He rose from the dead (see this post: http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/05/did-jesus-really-die-and-rise.html ). He has kept His promise that He would lead His Church into all truth. There is no part of the moral law which has been reversed in 2,000 years of Church teaching. That alone should make you take notice, considering some of the foolish and even evil men who have been Pope throughout the millennia (many more were holy, praise God, but none touched the teachings… because they cannot). It can only be that the Church is guided supernaturally to hold steady and strong. <br /><br />You mention that Buddhism has been around longer. But Buddhism is not about God. Buddha himself never claimed to be God, as Jesus did. And Buddhism has certainly changed over the years to reflect different moralities, no? The oldest standing institution in the world is the Papacy (heading the same Catholic Church). She has outlived every empire, and she is still vibrant and real. She still has not changed her Deposit of Faith. She is the largest charity on earth and hold the very highest morality on earth as well. She has a catalogue of saints (truly holy, heroically virtuous saints) that would make our heads spin (thousands are canonized, many millions of whom are not). And the connections between members of the Body of Christ are unreal: The centuries melt away when I read the Early Church Fathers, who are writing of the same (the <i>same</i> Catholic Faith that we Catholics hold today. It's like we could pick up the conversation as if we were simply siblings who hadn't seen each other for a while. We share the same sacraments, the same morality, the same Church structure and hierarchy, the same Creed, the same understanding of God and man, the Fall, the Redemption, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, Mary, the Saints, etc., etc., etc. And all base on the Death, Resurrection and promises of one Man: Jesus Christ, who is the center of everything human and divine. He made everything, He redeemed everything and His Cross stands in the center of all history. (Secularists can't even get away from that as every time they put a date on their checks or papers, they acknowledge the Year of Our Lord. He is all in all.<br /><br />I am sorry to go on, and I am sure that is not coherent, as I am just letting my fingers fly, but I do recommend that you start investigating Christ's claims. He came for you, too, Johanne. He made you, He loves you and He wants you back. If you read C.S. Lewis' <i>Mere Christianity</i>, that's a good start to find out who this Jesus fellow is….<br /><br />Blessings!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-21821696291654871402012-02-18T15:55:13.200-07:002012-02-18T15:55:13.200-07:00Johanne, I just came back from a little 24-hour ge...Johanne, I just came back from a little 24-hour getaway with the hubby, and so I'm a bit behind! I was going to answer your comment, but Nubby did a great job doing that for me.<br /><br />I will add that not only are the ends and means <i>equally</i> important, but if either the means or end of an act are evil, then the entire act is morally wrong. <br /><br />Here is the very consistent, never wavering moral truth about human life: You shall not directly kill an innocent human being. Period. That is a moral law (not a strictly Catholic one, but a universal one). It is written on the hearts of all men. We know this. We know that we are not permitted to willfully kill innocents. <br /><br />You said: <br /><br /><i>First of all, I think you are talking about a minority of Catholics, not "Christians," because most Christians I know,and some Catholics, are not opposed to abortion. </i><br /><br />Then those Christians/Catholics have strayed from Christian truth. You see, an individual Christian does not get to decide what is true. Christian truth, which has been taught since the first moment Christ founded the Church, holds that abortion is always wrong. The Church has never taught otherwise. It does not matter how many Christians or Catholics decide to reject Christian truth. The Truth is the Truth. Even if the whole world rejects it.<br /><br />Hope that helps!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-23996076351501540742012-02-18T15:37:01.073-07:002012-02-18T15:37:01.073-07:00But on what do you base the premise that The Catho...But on what do you base the premise that The Catholic <br />Church alone defends "all" that is good and true. How do you know that? Or do you just feel it? I'm really curious.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685219634783273971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-73736495423088616332012-02-18T12:28:21.685-07:002012-02-18T12:28:21.685-07:00You deny all that just because you are attached to...<i>You deny all that just because you are attached to the "end" that YOU believe should have priority. </i><br /><br />False. The means and the end are equally important. One doesn't override the other. <br /><br />To say that a person may never arrive at a moral end by immoral means does not equate to saying that the end is more important. How one arrives is as morally important as the point of arrival.<br /><br /><i>There is no objective truth to it. </i> <br /><br />False. <br /><br /><i> I think that systems that encourage people to think that they alone know what is "true" are very dangerous.</i> <br /><br />Only if those systems believe or teach that evil is good and good is evil. The Catholic Church upholds and defends all that is good and true concerning human dignity, sactity, and life. No danger there. The danger comes when we stray from that.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-32316572272044077812012-02-18T11:58:31.171-07:002012-02-18T11:58:31.171-07:00The fetus IS a growing baby. A fetus inside a woma...The fetus IS a growing baby. A fetus inside a woman is NOT a puppy. <br /><br />What emotional harm? <br /><br />As humans we grow by working through adversities and problems and surprises. Even criminals on death row get an appeal process! Life is risky. Getting out of bed in the morning is risky. We also grow into better people by learning not to be selfish. <br /><br />Emotional harm: there are therapists all over the place and more self-help books* you can shake a pacifier at. There are plenty of women who have worked through the many adjustments and worries of pregnancy. <br /><br />Life is not easy. Things will not always go our way. I wish Life were easy and wonderful and go my way. I complain too, but I do not kill anyone. (Maybe I've killed my plants, but not on purpose.)<br /><br /><br />Obviously, I do not have the patience of others on this blog.Lenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09173616693453942166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-48330518031018361242012-02-18T09:42:59.758-07:002012-02-18T09:42:59.758-07:00Johanne, a quick question:
Which is the greater i...Johanne, a quick question:<br /><br />Which is the greater injustice: murder or emotional harm?LJPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02518820502652594165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-56145779119529020842012-02-17T22:00:32.853-07:002012-02-17T22:00:32.853-07:00@Leila
"What you are describing is an end-jus...@Leila<br />"What you are describing is an end-justifies-the-means morality, which is contrary to Christianity. We are never permitted to commit moral evil (sin) in order to bring about a good. Sin is never a recourse we have as moral beings. We have to choose virtue over vice, every time. Anything else is beneath the dignity of human beings. That's the Christian view."<br /><br />First of all, I think you are talking about a minority of Catholics, not "Christians," because most Christians I know,and some Catholics, are not opposed to abortion. And in regards to "ends justify the means," That argument can just as easily be made regarding your position. You could say (and I do say) that when your goal is for the fetus to grow into a baby you are willing to use any means toward that end--even if it means having a woman put her life at risk--to risk having her other children grow up without mother--even if it destroys the emotional health of the pregnant woman, or harms her in some deep way. You deny all that just because you are attached to the "end" that YOU believe should have priority. There is no objective truth to it. I think that systems that encourage people to think that they alone know what is "true" are very dangerous.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685219634783273971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-70321907769084493872012-02-17T21:53:07.173-07:002012-02-17T21:53:07.173-07:00@ Lucky7
You might notice that it is the conservat...@ Lucky7<br />You might notice that it is the conservative legislators, the "pro-life" ones that consistently vote against services for single mothers.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14685219634783273971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-8428020335699924312012-02-17T19:34:02.985-07:002012-02-17T19:34:02.985-07:00Mary,
First of all this is not a poverty issue, wo...Mary,<br />First of all this is not a poverty issue, women of all financial levels can have an unplanned pregnancy. And, again, I am not talking about services to help them raise the child, I am talking about services that give them the freedom to CHOOSE TO KEEP their child. I was pointing out that PP and our government's current approach toward pregnant women is to help them abort...not help them choose life. <br /><br />I am with Leila, I want to know how in a "civilized" society being a woman could mean killing your child out of fear or convenience, surgically or chemically stopping normal body systems, and allowing men unlimited sexual satisfaction without any consequences or responsibility.Lucky7https://www.blogger.com/profile/13610950475578221723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-6709293138277348552012-02-17T18:29:28.452-07:002012-02-17T18:29:28.452-07:00No, I don't feel like I'm being targeted s...No, I don't feel like I'm being targeted specifically or treated unjustly (thanks for the smear campaign Lena). <br /><br />But I do know that there have been plenty of nasty, rude, irrational, emotional outbursts on here coming from those of a conservative religious persuasion and I do think that this editorial sensationalizes the comments of people who don't agree with the religious right conservative agenda. <br /><br />The sad thing is I originally came here to dialogue in a civil manner but I soon realized I had to throw that intention out the window.<br /><br />So onwards, to more important projects in life.Miss Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02503676176409924845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-18651552868775831172012-02-17T15:03:09.936-07:002012-02-17T15:03:09.936-07:00Frank, thanks! I actually gave kudos to Andrew Sul...Frank, thanks! I actually gave kudos to Andrew Sullivan for making a very logical case, here:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/08/when-devout-secularists-and-devout.html<br /><br />He is the second example in the post. :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-22475270765730867272012-02-17T14:53:52.550-07:002012-02-17T14:53:52.550-07:00Sorry your editorial didn't get published, Lei...Sorry your editorial didn't get published, Leila!<br /><br />Re: arguing with the "left":<br /><br />If you're seriously looking for the other side's arguments, there are plenty of places to go. When I get into gay marriage debates (here and on other sites), I link to Jonathan Rauch, Rob Tisinai at wakingupnow.com, Timothy Kincaid at boxturtlebulletin.com, and Andrew Sullivan.<br /><br />All of them argue logically, admit when they're wrong, acknowledge the strengths of their opponents' arguments and the weaknesses of their own, and even criticize their own side when it's appropriate. And, while sometimes they're not "nice" (to borrow Leila's term), they don't use personal attacks or emotional blowups.<br /><br />And, they're all VERY aware of your arguments. They know the stats and studies you're using, they know the experts you're quoting, they know the Catholic and conservative side of the debate... I've mentioned before that I've even seen Sullivan quote Jennifer Fulwiler and Tisinai link to Stacy Trasancos. <br /><br />They're smarter than me, anyway, but I try to follow their lead here.Frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08177378357148360987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-68315026613609894532012-02-17T13:04:15.571-07:002012-02-17T13:04:15.571-07:00I mean services for pregnant women in crisis? Plac...I mean services for pregnant women in crisis? Places to go if they are being abused or being forced to abort? I only point out the lack of services to reveal the disparity not in any way to indicate I want more government involvement.Lucky7https://www.blogger.com/profile/13610950475578221723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-16832856507891510532012-02-17T13:02:25.695-07:002012-02-17T13:02:25.695-07:00Also, tax breaks for single mothers with low incom...Also, tax breaks for single mothers with low incomes.maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05613163382453563548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-53999109974011647722012-02-17T13:01:37.759-07:002012-02-17T13:01:37.759-07:00Oh Nubby...that song just kills me. It was in fac...Oh Nubby...that song just kills me. It was in fact on the air during the times when I stood by and allowed two persons close to me to have abortions when I could have at the very least offered to take them in or take in their child. (I was not physically there, but felt wrong "contradicting" what they decided to do because it would make them feel bad.)maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05613163382453563548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-88004914168877134092012-02-17T12:57:00.371-07:002012-02-17T12:57:00.371-07:00Lucky 7 said: What does our government do to promo...Lucky 7 said: What does our government do to promote, fund or legislate services that allow the woman to safely bear a child? NOTHING. You have to ask yourself "Why?"<br /><br />Well, to be fair, our government has WIC, Welfare and our state has grants for clinics that primarily serve welfare mothers in Worcester and such.maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05613163382453563548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-87081167766796980752012-02-17T12:45:43.623-07:002012-02-17T12:45:43.623-07:00Pretty sure that every paragraph, maybe every sent...Pretty sure that every paragraph, maybe every sentence of "No Man is an Island" could offer infinite contemplation. I just happened to select it today from my book shelves for the first time. Actually, I believe there was more to it than "just happened"...it offered great consolation amidst such uncertainty.Lucky7https://www.blogger.com/profile/13610950475578221723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-29725839367056237122012-02-17T12:35:26.453-07:002012-02-17T12:35:26.453-07:00LJP, yes, amazing! I could meditate on that for a ...LJP, yes, amazing! I could meditate on that for a long time!<br /><br />Gwen, do you feel like I have wronged you in this post?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.com