tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post8010734689298460756..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Answering Miss Gwen: The distinction between a person and his actionsLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-51360182634433780632012-06-21T23:30:02.269-07:002012-06-21T23:30:02.269-07:00Olya, Christ is quoted as saying ""Not e...Olya, Christ is quoted as saying ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." in Matt:7:21. There is the evidence that merely saying "I believe" but not actually following through with 'walking the walk' will not earn you salvation.bowspearerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12734475151770510228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-43491408388811059572011-02-11T17:15:05.009-07:002011-02-11T17:15:05.009-07:00I'm late to this party but I'm confused wh...I'm late to this party but I'm confused why some Protestants are seemingly afraid to admit that Almighty God used men (and women) in roles He wished them to take. God still uses people to carry out His will. God can use people to canonize a Bible, just as He can use them to pray for one another. He doesn't need to, but history shows, He desires it.<br /><br />Protestants: The Bible is silent on a great many topics, and where it's not silent, it's often cloudy. So where does one go for the final word? How do you know you're following God's Perfect Will if you don't have a clear cut direction? <br /><br />-NubbyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-63926541055771202292011-02-04T09:49:13.292-07:002011-02-04T09:49:13.292-07:00I agree. I wish we could continue the conversation...I agree. I wish we could continue the conversation. I am always ready to answer ANY question put forth about the Church, and yet I find that not everyone wants to answer when the questions are for them. I don't get it.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-18582834924977129002011-02-04T09:25:12.601-07:002011-02-04T09:25:12.601-07:00I'm disappointed too. I've been following ...I'm disappointed too. I've been following this thread hoping to see them tackle the question myself.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16574404020737651409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-80553141140179311642011-02-04T08:30:15.276-07:002011-02-04T08:30:15.276-07:00Is this really how this is going to end? With no ...Is this really how this is going to end? With no clarity whatsoever? I'm genuinely curious as to how Protestants believe the Bible came about and that really hasn't been answered yet (and I've read through the entire conversation). How disappointing...Meg @ True, Good and Beautifulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10507070127764766394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-49138761736840661652011-02-03T21:34:25.587-07:002011-02-03T21:34:25.587-07:00Mark, I have to be honest and tell you that you ha...Mark, I have to be honest and tell you that you haven't answered the question, and no one reading even from the beginning would be able to make sense of this conversation. I am sorry you don't want to answer the question of how it is that the Bible came to your hands. God certainly was in charge of the whole process, but it's the <i>process</i> that I wanted you to lay out for me. I understand why you won't (can't?) answer. <br /><br />If you want to revisit this, just let me know! <br /><br />Also, I highly recommend the book that JoAnna recommends. It really was instrumental in my friend Kim's conversion to the Church:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/p/from-gender-feminism-to-catholicism-by.html<br /><br />Blessings!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-4021000833451305732011-02-03T20:49:01.866-07:002011-02-03T20:49:01.866-07:00Mark, the issue of authority is the crux of all is...Mark, the issue of authority is the crux of all issues we've discussed. If the Church had the authority to compile the Bible, then it logically follows She has the authority to interpret its teachings as well. The Church came before the Bible, not the other way around.<br /><br />I understand, though, why you won't (can't?) answer my question. I highly encourage you to check out the Mark Shea book I recommended upthread. As I said, it goes into all of this in much greater detail than we really can in a combox.JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-84466581142627337752011-02-03T20:09:09.165-07:002011-02-03T20:09:09.165-07:00Leila, Mark here. I was only addressing two prim...Leila, Mark here. I was only addressing two primary issues throughout this post, while trying to ignore many other issues you have raised : 1 your teaching that our works play a role in how we stand before God at the end and 2 the relationship of the church to the Bible. I read back through the comments, what is there should be sufficient to communicate my basic premise. I chose these because they are critical in understanding our relationship to God. Anyone considering an issue approaches it with certain assumptions, perhaps considering that may help? If there is any more genuine interest on your part on these issues fell free to contact me, however I believe I've exhausted this venue, so, thanks for your time and God Bless. To anyone else that jumped in in the middle, please start at the beginning and it should make much more sense.Olyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-23914582541162867882011-02-03T18:53:49.794-07:002011-02-03T18:53:49.794-07:00Wait a sec, Olya, we're talking about two diff...Wait a sec, Olya, we're talking about two different things here. Let me break it down so you can see what I mean.<br /><br />You said:<br /><br />[That's the difference here, you make the Bible to be the result of men's work (something that Mark's been saying and you are clearly avoiding), councils, that decided and are telling everyone which books belong in the Bible and what they mean.] <br /><br />Then you said:<br /><br />[And I am telling you that it is God's own Spirit who interprets the Bible for His chose ones. That is why we do not need the church to tell us what the Bible means, we have the Holy Spirit for that.]<br /><br />Do you see the disconnect here? Leila and I are talking about COMPILING the Bible (1st comment). You are talking about INTERPRETING the Bible (2nd comment). They are two very different things and I don't understand why you link them together like that.<br /><br />Let's focus on the first comment for now. <br /><br />How did the Bible come into existence, in your view? Was it compiled by men or did God drop it out of the sky, fully compiled, for men to duplicate?<br /><br />Just answer that and we can go from there.<br /><br />(Incidentally, if you want a really thorough Catholic perspective on this issue, I highly recommend Mark Shea's "By What Authority: An Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition." He goes through everything we've been discussing so far in great detail.)JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-25131846512574167962011-02-03T11:00:41.950-07:002011-02-03T11:00:41.950-07:00Olya, the Church was given authority by God. The C...Olya, the Church was given authority by God. The Church canonized the Bible. The Church did so under the authority of the Holy Spirit. So, the Church did it as an authority, guided by the Holy Spirit. Just like the men who wrote the books of the Bible. God inspired it, they wrote it. God uses and works through men. Always has, always will.<br /><br />What was the sin of Korah?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-5480463503493704872011-02-03T10:58:36.993-07:002011-02-03T10:58:36.993-07:00Olya, HOW did we get the 27 books of the New Testa...Olya, HOW did we get the 27 books of the New Testament? God works through men. The Bible is a work of God <i>and</i> men. <br /><br />Give me a step by step. How did we get the New Testament? How did we get the 27 books? How did we know there were 27 and not 28? How did the people back in the 300s know?<br /><br />Please be very, very, very specific.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-43999554300780087182011-02-03T10:56:42.695-07:002011-02-03T10:56:42.695-07:00Leila, you never responded to this statement Mark ...Leila, you never responded to this statement Mark made: 'I'll try to say the same thing a different way. The Roman Catholic position on canonization presumes that it was an act of authority. The Protestant position assumes that it was an act of submission to authority' Can you please comment on that.<br />Thank youOlyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-60958662466980431802011-02-03T10:53:42.496-07:002011-02-03T10:53:42.496-07:00Leila, God used men to WRITE DOWN the scriptures b...Leila, God used men to WRITE DOWN the scriptures by using the Holy Spirit. He DID NOT need men to come together and say 'ok, this book's in, this one's out' just like He didn't need the Pharisees to say' Yep, Jesus is the promised one'. In fact, Jesus IS the promised one regardless of what the Pharisees thought of Him. The same with the Bible. His chosen ones KNOW what the Word of God is, they don't need councils to state which books are the inspired ones. In fact, coming from the former Soviet Union country I know of many men who pieced together the Word of God from Soviet propaganda though they had never seen a Bible in their life. <br />That's the difference here, you make the Bible to be the result of men's work (something that Mark's been saying and you are clearly avoiding), councils, that decided and are telling everyone which books belong in the Bible and what they mean. And I am telling you that it is God's own Spirit who interprets the Bible for His chose ones. That is why we do not need the church to tell us what the Bible means, we have the Holy Spirit for that.<br />Also, have you actually read the Church Fathers or are you getting your pieces of their works from Catholic sources? Catholic church's official policy is to go back a find proof in the Fathers of whatever the current church teaching is. And it is quite easy to do, as the Fathers were not as monolithic and unanimous in their views as you are saying (though it certainly DOES appear that way if your only sources of their writings are Catholic publications). They were different people with their own different views much like Catholics are today.Olyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-36020957692987033822011-02-03T10:10:39.418-07:002011-02-03T10:10:39.418-07:00Sorry, I meant officialize. :)Sorry, I meant officialize. :)Meg @ True, Good and Beautifulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10507070127764766394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-57284114897038362542011-02-03T08:27:50.339-07:002011-02-03T08:27:50.339-07:00"God doesn't NEED men to officiate his wo..."God doesn't NEED men to officiate his word"<br /><br />God doesn't NEED anything-God lacks in nothing. But He DID use men to officiate His word. I mean, that is the entire Bible: God's self-revelation to man, through men, until finally, God became man, in yet another way to reveal Himself to humanity. He didn't NEED to do it that way, but He did. He did out of love. He did it for our sake, not for His own.<br /><br />So if man had nothing to do with the Bible coming to you (which is what you are implying by not clearly answering Leila's question to you), how did it come? Did God physically write it down Himself? Did He physically put it together and reveal it to every Christian individually (because otherwise there must be some human authority that promulgated it to all the others, and that couldn't be if man had nothing to do with it...)? What about the Reformation-why are there fewer books in your bible than in mine? Did God change His mind?<br /><br />If man had nothing to do with it, I would see positive answers to all of the above as the logical conclusions. You don't really have to answer these; by answering Leila's questions directly, I think you'll clear it all up for me. Thank you for the discussion!Meg @ True, Good and Beautifulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10507070127764766394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-39802124838709993182011-02-02T22:45:43.681-07:002011-02-02T22:45:43.681-07:00JoAnna, thank you for that information on the cano...JoAnna, thank you for that information on the canons. Much better than what I had said.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-59184517350915015612011-02-02T22:30:08.685-07:002011-02-02T22:30:08.685-07:00[The point I'm trying to make is that GOD does...[The point I'm trying to make is that GOD doesn't NEED men to officialize his word. He did not work that way before Christ, he did not work that way at the time of Christ, it's absurd to assume that an unchangeable GOD would work that way now.]<br /><br />But He did use men. You've yet to prove otherwise. <br /><br />God didn't NEED to use a teenage girl from Galilee to bear His Son. He didn't NEED to become Incarnate and die on a cross for our sins, either. But He did. <br /><br />[Your own listed history states that the canon was not established till trent, which was a response to the reformation]<br /><br />No, it does not The canon was established prior to 400 AD and merely reiterated at Trent. <a href="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=1035" rel="nofollow">As it says here</a>:<br /><br />"The Council of Trent (1545-1564) infallibly reiterated what the Church had long taught regarding the canons of the Old and New Testaments. Pope Damasus promulgated the Catholic canons at the Synod of Rome in A.D. 382, and later, at the regional councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419), the Church again defined the same list of books as inspired.<br /><br />The canons of the Old and New Testaments, as defined by Pope Damasus and the Councils of Hippo and Carthage, were later ratified (though the books were not enumerated individually) by the later Ecumenical councils of II Nicaea (787) and Florence (1438-1445). Although the Council of Trent, in response to the Protestant violation of the Bible by deleting the seven Deuterocanonical books plus portions of Daniel and Esther, was the first infallible conciliar listing of each individual book, it certainly did not add those books to the canon.<br /><br />If that were the case, how could Martin Luther and the other Reformers have objected to the presence of those books decades before the Council of Trent if they weren't in the canon to begin with and were added by the Council of Trent?"JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-70827593058339689052011-02-02T22:08:06.702-07:002011-02-02T22:08:06.702-07:00Mark/Olya, it's sort of frustrating that you w...Mark/Olya, it's sort of frustrating that you won't answer the question. How did GOD have the Bible come to you? How did GOD have the New Testament canonized? <br /><br />For you to say that God did not work through men is the absurdity, and flies in the face of the entire Old and New Testaments. Who was Moses? Who were the prophets? Who were the Apostles? God always, always, always delegated His authority to sinful men. And He expected the people of God to listen to the men He put in charge. <br /><br />What is the sin of Korah? Can you tell me?<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />(And, if you could answer the question of how the Bible got you, that would be great.)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-18426465452602407352011-02-02T21:00:24.603-07:002011-02-02T21:00:24.603-07:00Who were the men who wrote it, who were the men wh...Who were the men who wrote it, who were the men who set the canon (there were many false gospels and epistles around), who were the men who preserved it, and how did they do it? Leila, your questions all presuppose YOUR answer, let me try this once again. What is the common element in all your questions? Men, men, men, men. The point I'm trying to make is that GOD doesn't NEED men to officialize his word. He did not work that way before Christ, he did not work that way at the time of Christ, it's absurd to assume that an unchangeable GOD would work that way now.Olyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-19672144597659150722011-02-02T20:35:23.468-07:002011-02-02T20:35:23.468-07:00I'll try to say the same thing a different way...I'll try to say the same thing a different way. The Roman Catholic position on canonization presumes that it was an act of authority. The Protestant position assumes that it was an act of submission to authority. Christ's sheep (which constitute the church) are those who hear his voice, and have been throughout history. When the profits spoke to Israel, the true sheep were those who heeded them because they knew they were hearing God. They didn't heed them because the religious authorities formed a council and decided they were canonical. When Jesus spoke to crowds, invoking Messianic prophecies, were the crowds supposed to exercise their own judgement, or were they supposed to turn to the religious authorities for guidance? Long before the Council of Rome in 382 (I pick that only because one of you put that out) the church knew what the canon was. Although early records are sparse, what is remarkable is how much consensus there was on the canon before ANY church council considered the question. Leila, your comment "we Catholics agree that no one is authorized to change or alter God's Word" is absurd right after your claim that the church somehow created the canon, so how does that work, they are only allowed to add books to it, they can't change their minds later? Do you not see how absurd the notion that men should sit in judgement on the voice of GOD is?Olyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-59788542453124645302011-02-02T14:14:41.345-07:002011-02-02T14:14:41.345-07:00Mark, we Catholics agree that no one is authorized...Mark, we Catholics agree that no one is authorized to change or alter God's Word. That is why Luther's attempts to remove books from the New Testament is so abhorrent to us.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-76374935926379582902011-02-02T14:09:43.317-07:002011-02-02T14:09:43.317-07:00Mark, pretend we are really slow. :) Can you answe...Mark, pretend we are really slow. :) Can you answer the specific questions that I asked you about how the New Testament canon got to you? Please preface your answers with the question you are responding to.<br /><br />Whenever you can.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-14584641102819524042011-02-02T14:09:02.206-07:002011-02-02T14:09:02.206-07:00Have to go for now, sorryHave to go for now, sorryOlyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-74768020499799421012011-02-02T14:08:22.075-07:002011-02-02T14:08:22.075-07:00The Deuterocanonicals were only an example, the po...The Deuterocanonicals were only an example, the point is the same.Olyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17230704672730866871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-36906071081211393942011-02-02T14:05:34.294-07:002011-02-02T14:05:34.294-07:00Mark/Olya, please stick to discussing the canon of...Mark/Olya, please stick to discussing the canon of the New Testament, since that canon is something we agree on. We can talk about the Old Testament canon later. <br /><br />So, please go back and answer the questions regarding the New Testament books.<br /><br />Thanks!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.com