tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post6942227346163065687..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Pope Francis is Time's Person of the YearLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-47928362916854623412013-12-27T16:26:36.197-07:002013-12-27T16:26:36.197-07:00Thanks for the email note, Johanne! No rush. I ap...Thanks for the email note, Johanne! No rush. I appreciate your class, truly.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-44247719276499289492013-12-19T06:46:43.651-07:002013-12-19T06:46:43.651-07:00"And this phrase: "the extinction of sel...<i>"And this phrase: "the extinction of self." It's hard to explain from "outside" Buddhism what that means.</i>"<br /><br />No disrespect, but it sounds like the art of confusion - much like Protestantism. How do you know if you're accurately practicing without a unifying authority?<br /><br />And to the point of my questioning, whether extinction is the ultimate goal. Is the ultimate goal a detachment from all desire? Extinction is the end desire, right? Even in just basic terms to this western mind, I can grasp what extinction means on a spiritual level, if it means detachment or escape or nothingness.<br /><br />A contrast from a Catholic perspective is that, again, coupled with philosophy, the Catholic practices her spirituality with her whole person, in order to bring a wholeness, not an extinction.<br /><br />It's like two numbers on a number line. Buddhists sound as if they're running into the negative (subtracting by mental discipline) in order to attain their end, whether God is a vehicle toward that or not (which doesn't line up logically). and Catholics are striving toward the positive (wholeness, greater sum).<br /><br />What I mean by relational:<br />Whether or not you attain nirvana doesn't depend on your relationships of love, right? It's mostly detachment?<br />Whether or not I attain heaven relies a lot on how well I've loved. Making a deposit of love while I'm here is greater than my faith and hope ("of faith, hope, and love, the greatest of these is love" per St Paul); not trying to escape mentally toward extinction.<br /><br />If that's incorrect, please correct me. How does Buddhism include the intangibles of the whole person (coupling it next to ancient philosophy of the thinking, willful person)?Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-35332285305355891872013-12-19T06:45:48.029-07:002013-12-19T06:45:48.029-07:00"Toward the end it sounded like Catholics mak...<i>"Toward the end it sounded like Catholics making the point that their religion is better</i>"<br />I wouldn't say that. I would say there are glaring differences that stand out because the author is contrasting a Person and personal God who relates on a love level, a mental level, a will level, a memory level and even a physical level (tangible sacraments) to human beings vs. a mental discipline or mental attainment that sounds like it leaves out 2/3 of the whole person.<br /><br /><i>There are many over-simplifications:</i>"<br /><br />Over-simplifications are okay for the purposes of an article, due to word count constraints, etc., but they aren't incorrect over simplifications, except for the statement regarding divinity of Buddha, right?Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-45515932109745277812013-12-19T06:45:12.098-07:002013-12-19T06:45:12.098-07:00Thanks for your input.
"those phrases refer ...Thanks for your input.<br /><br /><i>"those phrases refer to things which are very complicated and it's not possible to have a meaningful discussion without defining the terms, which would be arduous at best.."</i><br /><br />Can you dumb it down for me? I'm not trying to get into definitions beyond who or what Buddhists are:<br />1) ultimately trying to relate to and <br />2) ultimately trying to attain using all the human faculties we have<br /><br /><i>This is true: "Buddhism "works" whether or not there is a God."</i><br /><br />That's what I understood: God can be a vehicle for the Buddhist, but relationship to a God is not what the Buddhist is trying to ultimately attain, right?Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-10109796802134081932013-12-18T20:15:23.957-07:002013-12-18T20:15:23.957-07:00HI Nubby. I read almost the entire article. It say...HI Nubby. I read almost the entire article. It says some valid things, like "Buddhism appears less concerned with dogma or doctrine than right living". This is what makes Buddhism <i>less</i> mental than Christianity, in a way. <br /><br />This is true: "Buddhism "works" whether or not there is a God."<br /><br />Toward the end it sounded like Catholics making the point that their religion is better:<br /><br />There are many over-simplifications:<br /><br />"Therefore, despite similar aspects, there is a fundamental difference" between Christian and Buddhist mysticism, wrote John Paul II. The Holy Father continued: "Christian mysticism . . . is not born of a purely negative 'enlightenment.' It is not born of an awareness of the evil which exists in man's attachment to the world through the senses, the intellect, and the spirit. Instead, Christian mysticism is born of the Revelation of the living God." "<br /><br />and this:<br /><br />"Christ, the "true light," did not teach His followers to extinguish their fires, such as is meaning of nirvana, but to illuminate the world with His love, and to reflect the light of His truth."<br /><br />This is also misleading:<br /><br /> "Buddhism teaches that suffering must be escaped from; indeed, this is a central concern of Buddhism."<br /><br />And this is not true:<br /><br />"Buddha is sometimes elevated to a state of divinity." <br />Buddha was just a person--no comparison between him and Jesus.<br /><br />And this phrase: "the extinction of self." It's hard to explain from "outside" Buddhism what that means.<br /><br />Regarding relational--I think I misunderstood you originally. I was saying that Buddhism was very concerned with how people relate to each other---not to God. But for Buddhists who believe in God (such as myself) practice is about that relationship as well.<br /><br />And for some reason, Catholics who are Buddhist seem to be drawn to Zen. Zen is the most mental, in my opinion, of all streams of Buddhism. I am not drawn to Zen at all.<br /><br />I have no idea if I"m answering your questions. Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861467738117604139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-10949969430494435652013-12-18T19:37:27.817-07:002013-12-18T19:37:27.817-07:00Johanne,
I still don't see how Buddhism is re...Johanne,<br /><br />I still don't see how Buddhism is relational. It's mainly mental, correct?<br /><br />What do you make of this article? It's a comparison of Catholicism to Buddhism written by an Asst Prof of East Asian History at Whitworth University. <br />If you'd like to skip to that very last part, you can scroll down to it. <br /><br />http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/clarkolson_cathbuddh_feb05.asp<br />Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-52029715341807030182013-12-18T18:57:47.985-07:002013-12-18T18:57:47.985-07:00In regards to Buddhism and Catholicism--Nirvana, G...In regards to Buddhism and Catholicism--Nirvana, God, ultimate detachment...those phrases refer to things which are very complicated and it's not possible to have a meaningful discussion without defining the terms, which would be arduous at best. I say this because we don't share a common language to even discuss these things. The word "nothingness" means something very different to an experienced Buddhist practitioner than to someone who looks up the word in the dictionary. so I will leave the discussion here. Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861467738117604139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-81739704991100839232013-12-18T18:54:07.820-07:002013-12-18T18:54:07.820-07:00Johanne, I am guessing that the confession of fait...Johanne, I am guessing that the confession of faith (or whatever they called it) in Methodism when you were growing up does contain a reference to belief in the devil. If it was never mentioned, that is because the pastors were either dissenters on that tenet of the faith they were claiming to speak for, or they didn't feel comfortable (?) mentioning something difficult. That's the only thing I can think of. And if the congregation didn't believe in the devil, that's because their pastors never taught them (so, ignorance of Christian belief).Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-69054260405829031552013-12-18T18:50:21.385-07:002013-12-18T18:50:21.385-07:00Sebastian
I'm not an expert on Christian theol...Sebastian<br />I'm not an expert on Christian theology in regards to the devil (obviously); but I grew up in a large, mostly conservative Methodist church-went to church every Sunday, attended Sunday school, choir, youth group, bible study--and I don't remember hearing the devil mentioned. Not ever. Perhaps our church was an aberration but that was my experience.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861467738117604139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-20074126513469643392013-12-18T11:02:47.143-07:002013-12-18T11:02:47.143-07:00Leila, our responses to Johanne crossed! We said t...Leila, our responses to Johanne crossed! We said the same thing.Sebastianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03993048824594772782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-80139636842394437432013-12-18T10:33:51.740-07:002013-12-18T10:33:51.740-07:00In the sense that one cannot witness the resurrect...<i>In the sense that one cannot witness the resurrection of Christ first hand. One can observe the unfolding of karma constantly.</i><br /><br />Is the criteria more than mental? Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-21333219638653375662013-12-18T10:25:47.349-07:002013-12-18T10:25:47.349-07:00Theravada Buddhism strives for nirvana. Correct? ...Theravada Buddhism strives for nirvana. Correct? Ultimately detachment, right?<br />There is another goal besides nirvana? There is an act of relating to a personal God?<br /><br />When you say your practice is all about relational truths, to whom are you relating?Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-1675881641870349482013-12-18T10:20:59.546-07:002013-12-18T10:20:59.546-07:00@Johanne
A Christian not believing the devil exis...@Johanne<br /><br />A Christian not believing the devil exists is an oddity. The bible reports several occasions where Jesus encounters the devil. The existence of Satan has been a core belief of the Catholic Church from its inception. Pope Francis refers to him, quoting Church teaching, as the father of lies. I assure you he doesn't mean that in a metaphorical way.Sebastianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03993048824594772782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-33081334581611881592013-12-18T10:19:37.118-07:002013-12-18T10:19:37.118-07:00Johanne, Buddhism is not about finding God or unio...Johanne, Buddhism is not about finding God or union with God, correct? That is not the point of meditation, nor the object of prayer, correct? Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-69408769305212903952013-12-18T10:18:52.049-07:002013-12-18T10:18:52.049-07:00"I know a lot of Christians who don't bel..."I know a lot of Christians who don't believe in the devil."<br /><br />This sort of thing always stymies me. Christ speaks often of the devil. The devil has been a belief in Christianity from the get-go. There really is no leeway in any kind of orthodox Christian thought for denial of the devil, unless folks are making up their own Christianity that does not include certain Christian tenets. But then, how are they professing the Christian faith? This stuff leaves me shaking my head. It's like Christians who don't believe in Christ in any recognizable way… <br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-55098675230266692222013-12-18T10:09:11.454-07:002013-12-18T10:09:11.454-07:00"It is a "revealed" religion in the..."It is a "revealed" religion in the sense that one can observe it for oneself. Which is totally different than Catholicism."<br /><br />In the sense that one cannot witness the resurrection of Christ first hand. One can observe the unfolding of karma constantly.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861467738117604139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-13539753254074384332013-12-18T10:06:30.887-07:002013-12-18T10:06:30.887-07:00@ Bill "for one see the need for Margo to bro...@ Bill "for one see the need for Margo to broaden her horizons." I would not get anywhere on this blog or in life if I approached people because I was trying to change them (assuming, of course they don't have a gun to my head or something like that). I gain a lot more from trying understand Margo and appreciate her, which is not hard to do. She obviously has a wonderful spirit.<br /><br />@ Sebastian. I know a lot of Christians who don't believe in the devil. I am sympathetic to someone who would think you were feeding your child superstition (that is my view) but I sympathize with your right to teach your daughter what is true to you.<br /><br />@Nubby<br /><br />"Buddhism's pinnacle is "nothingness", to attain nothing, apart from any god, this is the ultimate goal.<br />Per Buddhism, we are to extinguish ourselves through the 8fold path. "<br /><br />As a 30-year Buddhist and an trained Buddhist chaplain I can tell you that characterization does not capture Buddhism in the least. Trust me on this one. You may be taking certain words or phrases from actual sources but no, that is not the point of Buddhism. <br /><br />Something to understand is that Buddhism is a varied as Christianty, Think of differences between Roman Catholics, meeting house Quakers, the polygomous sects of Mormonism, Pentacostals, Shakers, Episcopals, Jehovah's Witnesses---that is how it is with Buddhism. I practice Theravadan Western Buddhism so I can only speak for that. The Buddhism I practice is all about relational truths.<br /><br />"If frustration were the main dictating variable.." I understand. If I believed I had the absolute truth I wouldn't give it up for anything. I feel that way somewhat about Buddhism but it's a very different thing from Christianity.<br /><br />"Curious, as you seek to understand Christianity, are the pieces lining up in terms of a broad view of the puzzle" <br />That's a hard question to answer. I grew up in a Christian church and am still involved with that church to a degree, so I think I understand Protestantism very well. It's Catholicism that I haven't understood. But I understand it quite a bit better now.<br /><br />Holding up Catholicism to Buddhism is like comparing an an aardvark to a mailbox. They are completely different things. if I did become a Christian I would never stop being a Buddhist. The tenets of Buddhism are constantly, consistently, concretely observable. It is a "revealed" religion in the sense that one can observe it for oneself. Which is totally different than Catholicism. I'm not sure all Protestants would say their religion is "revealed." I'm not sure about that.<br /><br /><br /><br />Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861467738117604139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-51876848777320842842013-12-18T09:08:37.407-07:002013-12-18T09:08:37.407-07:00Yeah, Johanne, feel free to explore my blog, exami...Yeah, Johanne, feel free to explore my blog, examiningcatholicism.blogspot.com :) <br /><br /><i>I try to focus on people's intentions (such as your intention, which seems to be that you want to share what you see as wonderful and true and will help people have eternal life?) and that helps me appreciate people even if I don't agree with them.</i><br /><br />Yup, that is my intention. And thank you, Nubby for your intriguing points about the contradictions between Catholicism and Buddhism. I too look forward to Johanne's responses. Margohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456678968658724716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-15095778271737150292013-12-18T07:08:06.989-07:002013-12-18T07:08:06.989-07:00Nubby…. wow! Thank you, those are excellent points...Nubby…. wow! Thank you, those are excellent points. I am enjoying this dialogue and looking forward to Johanne's responses.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-69232515738313670942013-12-18T06:43:53.214-07:002013-12-18T06:43:53.214-07:00And I would add a stronger point:
Christianity is ...And I would add a stronger point:<br />Christianity is a revealed religion. The real question is, can we trust that revelation?<br />Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-41787256244123859952013-12-18T06:23:31.946-07:002013-12-18T06:23:31.946-07:00"Buddhism teaches that karma is based on inte...<i>"Buddhism teaches that karma is based on intention. I try to focus on people's intentions (such as your intention, which seems to be that you want to share what you see as wonderful and true and will help people have eternal life?) and that helps me appreciate people even if I don't agree with them.</i>"<br /><br />Can we explore Buddhism for a minute? This is just for discussion, not an affront.<br />Can we intellectually challenge this teaching you mention above?<br />To speak to the comparison of Buddhism to Christianity: <br />Buddhism's pinnacle is "nothingness", to attain nothing, apart from any god, this is the ultimate goal.<br />Per Buddhism, we are to extinguish ourselves through the 8fold path. <br /><br />Conversely, the Christian teaching is that a holy soul attains the fullness of one God. When you couple that with, for example, Aristotle, you have the complete picture that we humans are thinking, willful creatures pointed toward communion, community, togetherness, unity, does that intellectually tip the scales a bit in favor of certain relational (ie., personal relationships, unitive, etc.) truths found in Christianity? Does it make more sense, logically or philosophically?<br /><br /><i>"I think it would be very frustrating to believe you know what is absolutely true and for others to disagree with you. "</i><br /><br />It may be frustrating to some, it may be frustrating during various periods throughout a person's life or within certain relationships, but frustrations aren't a stopping point for discussion unless the people involved are being overly emotional or uninterested.<br /><br />Its the most important thing, in dialogue, to understand the differences so that clear judgment toward truth can be made. You wouldn't wrestle an equation without first understanding the variables, at least the known ones, right? <br /><br />And to begin problem solving, though frustrations may arise, is only part of the process. <br /><br />You (we, as thinking, willful humans) want the truest form, the truest answer, the answer with the most intelligibility.<br /><br /><i>"I think it's less frustrating to be in dialog with the mindset that you might learn something new. It's actually an exciting experience to realize you weren't right about something--that the world contains mysteries, and what you believe now might not be what you believe in the future. "</i><br /><br />This goes across the board from religion to medicine to mathematics. The aim isn't to become "less frustrated", the aim is to hurdle the frustration while pursuing the true(r) answer(s). If frustration were the main dictating variable, I'd have never entered a college classroom or embraced the challenges of Catholicism, just to name a couple.<br /><br /><i>"I'm still open to the (very very faint) possibility that I might be a Christian some day, </i>"<br /><br />Curious, as you seek to understand Christianity, are the pieces lining up in terms of a broad view of the puzzle (historically accurate, reliable, enduring, intelligent)? When you hold up Buddhism next to Catholicism under the light, which aspects or attributes are most prominent at this point? Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-14958736872903802562013-12-18T04:44:58.387-07:002013-12-18T04:44:58.387-07:00@ Johanne
I think it goes both ways, Sebastian. I...@ Johanne<br /><br /><i>I think it goes both ways, Sebastian. If you had a niece or nephew who told your daughter there was no such thing as God you would want to silence that, no?</i><br /><br />Funny you should mention that. I have told my daughter before that my brother does not believe in God (without judging or condemning him in the slightest). We even pray for him at night (though not specifically that he may rediscover God). I was reprimanded for that too by by mother, who heard from my daughter that he did not believe in God - which he doesn't. That was also determined to be too harsh for his boys - who are supposed to somehow believe in God (though their father doesn't), but apparently not in the devil, which is superstitious crap. See my confusion? I respect anyone's prerogative not to believe. But that goes both ways, including whether I teach my daughter the truth about the devil (as best I can). I cannot then entirely control what she does with that information, though I have now told her not to talk about it. This too would probably have been unthinkable not so long ago - telling kids to hush up about speaking to truth as revealed by our faith.Sebastianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03993048824594772782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-28622179819176852122013-12-18T04:40:40.467-07:002013-12-18T04:40:40.467-07:00Wow, Johanne,
That was an awesome response. I ha...Wow, Johanne, <br /><br />That was an awesome response. I hadn't unsubscribed to this thread (so as remove the temptation to comment) and I, for one see the need for Margo to broaden her horizons. You should go on her blog if she wants you to. I'm out of here. Ciao!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976342950011924171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-88584871559302252982013-12-17T23:28:44.716-07:002013-12-17T23:28:44.716-07:00"Wouldn't absolute truth make life simple..."Wouldn't absolute truth make life simpler; if we could all agree on absolute truth?"<br /><br />Yes, I think it would make life a lot simpler, but I can't imagine it will ever happen.<br /><br />"Why not accept <i>the</i> truth as absolute truth? "<br />I don't believe your truth (Catholicism) <i>is</i> the absolute truth. I know you do, as do most of the people on this blog. But I don't, and most people don't. I think very few people ever will, though I can't know that for certain.<br /><br />I don't know if there is a "solution." I think the best case scenario would be for people to respect each other.<br /><br />Buddhism teaches that karma is based on intention. I try to focus on people's intentions (such as your intention, which seems to be that you want to share what you see as wonderful and true and will help people have eternal life?) and that helps me appreciate people even if I don't agree with them.<br /><br />I think it would be very frustrating to believe you know what is absolutely true and for others to disagree with you. I think it's less frustrating to be in dialog with the mindset that you might learn something new. It's actually an exciting experience to realize you weren't right about something--that the world contains mysteries, and what you believe now might not be what you believe in the future. I'm still open to the (very very faint) possibility that I might be a Christian some day, (though I will never not be a Buddhist. They are not mutually exclusive. I know someone who is a Catholic priest <i>and</i> a Zen priest)<br /><br />Sorry, I'm rambling. Sleep well.Johannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861467738117604139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-70892287868894101022013-12-17T22:29:18.075-07:002013-12-17T22:29:18.075-07:00and I know you see your truth as the truth, but a ...<i>and I know you see your truth as the truth, but a lot of people don't.</i><br /><br />So, what's the solution? Why not accept <i>the</i> truth as absolute truth? What's stopping you? Wouldn't absolute truth make life simpler; if we could all agree on absolute truth?Margohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456678968658724716noreply@blogger.com