tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post5123150510521988235..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Ongoing Dialogue with Matt, an atheistLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger219125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-65287054152006754562015-04-21T19:54:05.963-07:002015-04-21T19:54:05.963-07:00Yes! New thread please! Yes! New thread please! Margohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456678968658724716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-62027205023716023042015-04-21T19:50:52.641-07:002015-04-21T19:50:52.641-07:00Adam,
One more reply to you, then I’m out. If I d...Adam,<br />One more reply to you, then I’m out. If I do not reply to you, it’s because I lack patience with this kind of caricature understanding of science that you’ve given since we’ve begun corresponding.<br /><br />BVG theorem has <i> never been disputed </i>. I don’t know why you won’t grasp that, intellectually. Again, your approach is intellectually dishonest. This isn’t my theory, right? This is the top physicists, correct or not correct?<br /><br />And your notion that it somehow does not “apply to our universe or cosmos” … ? You’re honestly hanging your hat on this reply? I am sorry, I cannot take your replies seriously. Maybe some other yokel under-educated idiot Catholic would buy it, but I am not. Try the hard sale with someone else, perhaps.<br /><br />And your comment about atheism to me at the 5:32 mark- that atheism is “a stance on a single non-belief in a god”, that translates directly to mean that you believe in a “nothing” instead of a “something”, correct or incorrect? Logical, huh?<br /><br /> I cannot find the attraction (or patience) to keep up with this type of nothing-talk.<br /><br />Yep, Leila, I’d like a new post since loading 200+ is a real nonexistent pain in my reality.<br />Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-44527347971778901802015-04-21T19:50:44.557-07:002015-04-21T19:50:44.557-07:00Heck, here is one more for the readers:
In his bo...Heck, here is one more for the readers:<br /><br /><i>In his book Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels, Atheist historian Michael Grant completely rejected the idea that Jesus never existed.</i><br /><br />"This sceptical way of thinking reached its culmination in the argument that Jesus as a human being never existed at all and is a myth.... But above all, <b>if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material</b>, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. Certainly, there are all those discrepancies between one Gospel and another. But we do not deny that an event ever took place just because some pagan historians such as, for example, Livy and Polybius, happen to have described it in differing terms.... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serous scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."<br /><br />Adam, the bold part is what I am curious about. Why do you use different standards than historians, when faced with historical documents? You speak of "extraordinary" events, but these historians use the same critical methods for all historical documents. <br /><br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-10687369269176027502015-04-21T19:47:28.058-07:002015-04-21T19:47:28.058-07:00Sorry, I meant to include this quote, too, from Pr...Sorry, I meant to include this quote, too, from Professor Stanton of Cambridge:<br /><br />"Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which as to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher."Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-15822937580033042752015-04-21T19:45:51.443-07:002015-04-21T19:45:51.443-07:00"Contemporary New Testament scholars have typ..."Contemporary New Testament scholars have typically viewed their arguments as so weak or bizarre that they relegate them to footnotes, or often ignore them completely.... The theory of Jesus' nonexistence is now effectively dead as a scholarly question." -- Van Voorst<br /><br />And the others. I just wish we didn't have to actually argue this point, since it is so "out there" and not credible. Where or how does one get so far from the Church that even settled history is questioned in order to discredit one's old faith? I don't get it; just being honest. It's extreme, and I'm shocked that you brought it up. Fact: Jesus of Nazareth lived in history.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-76971797363797023482015-04-21T19:40:41.568-07:002015-04-21T19:40:41.568-07:00Paul was most definitely not the only eyewitness t...Paul was most definitely not the only eyewitness to Jesus. I'm curious as to your sources on the Christian side of things? What believing Christian scholars and historians and intellects have you read and considered? And, will you take the challenge (that no one yet has) and give me the scenario of what really happened, if Jesus did not die and rise? From what we know of human nature. And there can't be any gaps, it has to really be a chronology. But that would presuppose a belief in a historical Jesus and your thinking may be too far out for that, unfortunately. Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-17098643358314075582015-04-21T19:33:14.465-07:002015-04-21T19:33:14.465-07:00And Alan, if you're still here and this is not...And Alan, if you're still here and this is not comment 200+, I have only been able to receive comments via email once, and I never could figure out why it worked that one time. But today I signed in with my Google address instead of AOL, and the option to be notified is finally there! Maybe you would have better luck if you signed in differently? Just a thought!Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08613359678249417791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-28870281436653384892015-04-21T19:32:07.390-07:002015-04-21T19:32:07.390-07:00Leila,
Your link talks about Richard Carrier in hi...Leila,<br />Your link talks about Richard Carrier in high regard. I can concur with that. He has many talks over the historicity of Jesus (many on YouTube to watch). He talks about original letters that Paul was the only eye witness to Jesus, and is only seen by visions or what you could call hallucinations today. I honestly don't know if he existed or not. The gospels are clear copies and embellishments of Mark to which many scholars agree. I don't find that Richard Carrier is embarrassed by such a claim that Jesus may not have existed.<br /><br />As for the Peloponnesian War, I don't have enough information and would have to read more to say it may or may not have happened. However, if I found that it does hold up to scrutiny, that could sway me to think that it probably did happen. But only because it is not a extraordinary claim. Now, that said, if the claims were more like the movie 300 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416449/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) then the opposite is true.Adam Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03226942185125731581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-82605834854339147222015-04-21T19:29:53.877-07:002015-04-21T19:29:53.877-07:00Oh and I think I made a mistake, too. I don't...Oh and I think I made a mistake, too. I don't know if it's correct to say that "the right to self-defense is not absolute". I just mean that the right to self-defense does not imply that any response in self-defense is acceptable.Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08613359678249417791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-21844644049020892092015-04-21T19:27:32.339-07:002015-04-21T19:27:32.339-07:00Are we over 200 comments already? I had a terribl...Are we over 200 comments already? I had a terrible time getting my computer to post my comment, and by the time it worked Alan had already decided to leave the conversation. That's too bad. Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08613359678249417791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-27152409336474556912015-04-21T19:26:36.106-07:002015-04-21T19:26:36.106-07:00Alan, forgive me, but the reason I get frustrated ...Alan, forgive me, but the reason I get frustrated is because some things are just obvious, and yet you don't acknowledge them as obvious, so I point them out as obvious. You know very well that intentional killing is different (morally speaking) than accidental, unintentional killing. I truly believe this is an easy concept, not tricky, and that everyone can understand that truth.<br /><br />Honestly, I have had as almost a mantra on this blog for five years: "Distinctions are so important." We must be able to make distinctions when we morally reason, Alan.<br /><br />Anyway, I notice that you have not really answered my questions? There were questions there. Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-12726642424121154782015-04-21T19:22:54.371-07:002015-04-21T19:22:54.371-07:00Hi Alan, I remember you and you come to mind every...Hi Alan, I remember you and you come to mind every so often. I hope you are doing well!<br /><br />I think in the discussion on war we have to make a distinction between starting a war and defending one's country. Bringing up Hitler seems so cliche, but he is a convenient recent example. He invaded country after country. Do you believe that it was immoral for those countries to defend themselves? Should they just have accepted Hitler as their Fuehrer? Do you believe that they somehow owed that to him, since that was their only other choice?<br /><br />I know that you and I, and Leila, would agree that a country's right to defend itself does not by any means imply that any behavior at all in response to aggression would be acceptable. Certainly, innocent civilians may not be intentionally targeted. The right to self-defense is not absolute. I hope you will take the time soon to take a serious look at just war theory. Unless you truly are saying that all self-defense is immoral, that if someone attacks you your only moral response is to allow the attack, that we must always allow evil to win the day, then I believe you will find that you will agree with many aspects of just war theory.Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08613359678249417791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-85223909171416290582015-04-21T19:22:48.875-07:002015-04-21T19:22:48.875-07:00Nubby has recommended that because 200+ comments a...Nubby has recommended that because 200+ comments are horrendous for all of us, I will continue with a new post, and we will start from where we are and go for another 200 comments, and so on. I think it's the only way. Thoughts?<br /><br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-31030880151711318592015-04-21T19:13:16.593-07:002015-04-21T19:13:16.593-07:00apparently my computer will not load more than 200...apparently my computer will not load more than 200, so I can respond to Leila, but that will be it.<br /><br />Leila, I'm not sure why you always go toward the snide...."um, unless it is. You know the difference between intentional and non-intentional, right?" is snide, and unnecessary.<br />So I guess it's good I can't read anymore.<br /><br />FYI, the country was intentionally invaded. The knowledge is there that innocents will be killed. If you want to argue that it's "accidental" or non targeted, well then I guess I can't help you.<br /><br />No need to reply.........I was hoping that perhaps time had changed you.....guess not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-73030645638924599942015-04-21T18:58:24.795-07:002015-04-21T18:58:24.795-07:00StarFireKK, great question. Why is there a physica...StarFireKK, great question. Why is there a physical "truth" but not a moral one? Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-31233867658440729392015-04-21T18:52:57.266-07:002015-04-21T18:52:57.266-07:00Do you know of anyone in history (or in your spher...Do you know of anyone in history (or in your sphere of life and interactions) who has come to believe in leprechauns? I mean, for real. I'm just curious, because you are basically equating God to leprechauns, but I don't see the parallel? So, have you ever seen it? Sane, healthy, intelligent people who come to believe in leprechauns as adults? (Or FSMs?)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-92092196977389952692015-04-21T18:50:49.413-07:002015-04-21T18:50:49.413-07:00Adam, do you have "proof" that the Pelop...Adam, do you have "proof" that the Peloponnesian War occurred, or just a reasonable belief without proof? (You would call that "faith", right?)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-73379054653714099122015-04-21T18:46:32.594-07:002015-04-21T18:46:32.594-07:00And millions of adults have to come to not believe...And millions of adults have to come to not believe. I don't see the relevance. Many believed in polytheism for thousands of years before Christianity became popular. Also, I can't say whether no adults have come to believe in leprechauns or not. Many people have come to a belief in ghosts which can be looked at as just as silly as the little green dudes.Adam Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03226942185125731581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-19376259990344283462015-04-21T18:45:26.259-07:002015-04-21T18:45:26.259-07:00Here is a guy who links to secular scholars on the...Here is a guy who links to secular scholars on the "Jesus Myth" theory:<br /><br />"I have often been asked why more academics do not take the time to respond to the Jesus Myth theory. After looking into this question, I discovered that most historians and New Testament scholars relevant to the topic have concluded that Jesus Mythers are beyond reason and therefore decide that they have better things to do with their time. Here are some examples:"<br /><br />http://www.bede.org.uk/price1.htm<br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-7653488778437545182015-04-21T18:42:35.133-07:002015-04-21T18:42:35.133-07:00No, Alan, not going there, may we please stay on t...No, Alan, not going there, may we please stay on topic? You just commented that it is possible and not possible for God to exist. May you please clarify that for me? Margohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09456678968658724716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-75026151768081442272015-04-21T18:42:28.181-07:002015-04-21T18:42:28.181-07:00Innocent civilians killed during a war is not an a...<i>Innocent civilians killed during a war is not an accident.</i><br /><br />Um, unless it is. You know the difference between intentional and non-intentional, right? Even our courts recognize that. If my child dies because someone accidentally runs him over because they couldn't see him, that is very different than if my child dies because someone saw him and targeted him with the car. <br /><br />And, are you saying that because there will be innocent lives lost in police action (even in the domestic realm) that police action is immoral? So, do we disband the police?<br /><br /><i>There is no difference between targeting civilians and them being killed in the war.</i><br /><br />If you do not see the difference between targeting someone to kill and inadvertently, mistakenly, unintentionally killing someone, I can't help you. I really don't know what to say to that. That is a pretty basic distinction, when speaking of moral reasoning. I mean, it's simple, and I have taught my kids that "on accident" is not the same as "on purpose". Surely you can agree. <br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-19623948935999360392015-04-21T18:37:53.796-07:002015-04-21T18:37:53.796-07:00Leila, can you point to examples of proof? I have ...<i>Leila, can you point to examples of proof? I have listened to scholars discuss Jesus and the fact is he may not have existed at all. Let alone resurrected. There are a couple of new books as well that talk about the historicity. Remarkable claims require remarkable evidence, and to my knowledge it is no where close to that mark.</i><br /><br />Adam, those who posit that Jesus never existed are so far on the fringe that the vast majority of secular historians are embarrassed by the claim. Don't go there. It is too much, and you will lose credibility. Let's stick with the reality that Jesus lived. Now, as for evidence, oh my goodness. So much evidence, including tons of eyewitness accounts, historical accounts. Unless you dismiss the New Testament gospels as non-historical? I would also love for you (or anyone) to give me a reasonable response to this:<br /><br />http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/05/did-jesus-really-die-and-rise.html<br /><br />(You can even reason it out here if you'd like.)<br /><br />There is C.S. Lewis (<i>Mere Christianity</i>, among others), there is Chesterton (<i>Everlasting Man</i>, among others, there is <i>Evidence That Demands a Verdict</i>, there is Dr. Kevin Vost. (search him on this site; I interviewed him: Former devout atheist, MENSA member and psychologist). And you mean "evidence" not "proof", I think?<br /><br />Also, could you answer about the Peloponnesian War? Why do you trust that it occurred?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-48047668896597068702015-04-21T18:31:01.496-07:002015-04-21T18:31:01.496-07:00Leila,
Has there ever been a war where innocent ci...Leila,<br />Has there ever been a war where innocent civilians have not been killed? There is no difference between targeting civilians and them being killed in the war. You know that when a war starts innocents will be lost. That is immoral. I don't see how you can work your way around that.<br />Swerving to miss a dog and hitting a person is a tragic accident, but not immoral. Innocent civilians killed during a war is not an accident.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-36955796755108894072015-04-21T18:30:44.027-07:002015-04-21T18:30:44.027-07:00Adam, it's not an argument. It's an observ...Adam, it's not an argument. It's an observation. Like I said, go figure. No adults have come to a belief in leprechauns, but many millions of adults have come to the belief in God and Christ. Including intellectual giants. Just an observation, but it's an interesting one.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-52851229174199258512015-04-21T18:26:31.016-07:002015-04-21T18:26:31.016-07:00Margo:
Margo, it is possible that acting on one...Margo:<br />Margo, it is possible that acting on one's homosexuality is not immoral?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com