tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post4545205548215586890..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Contraception leads to abortion. Come and see...Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger200125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-30284626735264434252016-02-18T08:44:30.405-07:002016-02-18T08:44:30.405-07:00Amy, I encourage people to speak their minds freel...Amy, I encourage people to speak their minds freely here. That is the point of the discussion. But if you don't mind my pointing out that you have not actually addressed a single point that was made in the original post? Could you engage in those facts, please? Of course not everyone who uses contraception will choose abortion should it fail (I was one of those), but that is not the point at all. If you don't mind engaging and answering the points of the article? Thanks!<br /><br />PS: Why do you think that only "quite wealthy" people welcome children and give them many siblings? That is not historically true at all, in fact, quite the opposite. We are very myopic today, and actually, I was going to write a blog post about that very subject (even before you mentioned it, and I have the draft to prove it. ;)), so thank you for confirming that it's a subject worth writing about. <br /><br />God bless!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-8995142834416229472016-02-18T07:57:12.253-07:002016-02-18T07:57:12.253-07:00My husband and I chose not to have children, for p...My husband and I chose not to have children, for personal reasons. I will not share them with you but I can assure you they were serious. I would think very poorly of a church and / or a God who would condemn us for this choice.<br />I have never had an abortion. We talked about it: what would we do if contraception went wrong and I would expect a child anyway? We agreed immediately that if that happened it would be fate and we would with God's help manage to have and raise the child well.<br />I have had only two partners in my life, one who whom I'm now married to. Not being promiscuous is a choice out of self-esteem; contraception does not automatically lead to loose sexual morals.<br />It also does not lead automatically to abortion, because contraception does not mean you do not want to have a child in general; in most cases it means you don’t want to have a child right now but will want one later, respectively that you have e.g. already two children and can’t afford to care for a third one.<br />People who are so adamant on condemning abortion always have the same cliché at the back of their minds: “Ooh, so you just had a little fun and now you don’t want to face the consequences.” Although that happens (unfortunately), it’s not always the case.<br />@ Leila: I would rather like to know what made you have eight children and expect your husband to provide for all of them, unless he is quite wealthy.<br />Your blog shows some insight, but I won't continue to read it. I daresay you don’t mean any harm, but it only has proved to me the experience I so often make with so-called "Catholics" - they believe to have found the only true wisdom. You have made YOUR life choices and use what you call religion as an excuse to tell everybody they are the only right ones. It's called the deadly sin of vanity, in case you didn't notice. Your logic is not all-encompassing, your God is not everybody's God. One can be a good and decent person without being you, with making other choices than you, and also without being a Catholic. Excuse me for speaking my mind so openly.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02827357802388386341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-57856169581486106912014-07-23T05:58:08.889-07:002014-07-23T05:58:08.889-07:00When you bring up risk compensation, people have o...When you bring up risk compensation, people have one of three reactions:<br /><br />1. Outright denial<br />1a. Claming that people don't factor risk of pregnancy into sexual decisions. <br />1b. Claming contraceptives really ARE highly effective and we just need to do a better job of convincing people to use them. (Good luck with that.) <br />2. Claiming that increased availability of sex is worth the risk. <br />3. An angry tirade about rape and non-consensual sex.<br /><br />#1 denies reality. #2 is honest, but rare and fairly shocking to most. #3 comes from the angry echo chambers of certain feminist circles that seem to see rape (and rape pregnancy) as much more common than it is.<br /><br />The article Rosy Hill refers to was written by a woman who comes from a fundamentalist background where, as I understand it, what most would consider marital sexual abuse was common and accepted. This often to led to the excusing and downplaying of other types of sexual abuse. She tried NFP, but did not have a good experience, probably because she was not able to escape many of her fundamentalist views about sex and the body. (Catholic NFP instructors often are completely unaware about the issues women coming from such culture have to overcome to be able to successfully use NFP, but I digress.) Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426782100196550563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-32439139173998571222014-07-23T05:32:44.386-07:002014-07-23T05:32:44.386-07:00http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2009/10/20/refere...http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2009/10/20/reference/abortion-still-key-birth-control/<br /><br />Japan accepted abortion and contraception simultaneously after World War II. Interestingly, Japan has largely rejected birth control pills and IUDs. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426782100196550563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-30267450726841670132014-07-23T05:28:57.047-07:002014-07-23T05:28:57.047-07:00It's not just a nutty pro-life concept or a Ca...It's not just a nutty pro-life concept or a Catholic concept, but basic psychology.<br /><br />Specifically, contraception leads to abortion due to the principle of risk compensation. As contraception reduces the risk of pregnancy from a sexual encounter, people have more sexual encounters, including those that are risky in that they are not an ideal situation for having babies. Furthermore, people tend to overestimate the effectiveness of contraceptive methods. The perfect use failure rate of birth control pills is 1% per year, however, the typical use failure rate is 8% per year. Many OB/GYNs observe even higher failure rates with 10% of their patients experiencing an unplanned pregnancy while on the Pill. <br /><br />The other problem is that people don't like the contraceptives. Contraceptives either interfere with intimacy or are hard on the body. Couples may have condoms, but not use them or not use them properly because they don't like them. The most effective contraceptives are the ones that are hardest on the body. It's not uncommon for women to get an IUD because of the high effectiveness rate only to get it removed a few months later because of the side effects. <br /><br />When you plan your life so that pregnancy doesn't happen and pregnancy does happen, this becomes a crisis and abortion is seen as a way out of the crisis. <br /><br />I will add that much the same can be said for natural family planning as well, however, the key difference is that a well trained couple is much more aware of the risk. In fact, the entire system is based on being aware of the risk of pregnancy on any given day. Second, it requires effort to avoid and couples can become quickly aware of how difficult it actually is to avoid pregnancy. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16426782100196550563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-32198682040376126152013-05-07T14:05:52.504-07:002013-05-07T14:05:52.504-07:00Have you read this article. It went viral on face...Have you read this article. It went viral on facebook.<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html<br /><br />It's in vain to argue against it because people will keep switching and changing. One minute they'll be saying that women aren't 'baby-making machines' and how dare the Church want to control my sex life, then they'll switch tactic and say 'how dare you suggest a woman takes this decision easily'. They'll say 'contraception is reliable', then they'll say 'women need abortion as a back-up for contraception failure'. I find the anger and hate and self-justification so exhausting I just can't argue with it. Maybe you can.<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12167148545316932402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-60928278902084546782012-04-29T21:30:26.556-07:002012-04-29T21:30:26.556-07:00Hi Mehridith! Well, you have to remember that cont...Hi Mehridith! Well, you have to remember that contraception is also sinful. So yes, sin begets sin, for sure. Sin is the base problem since the Fall of man, and sin is a failure to love. No one would disagree that sin leads to abortion, and sin originates in the heart of man. I am not sure why you think we disagree, so if you could clarify, I can better answer your question.<br /><br />I'm not sure what the IUD question is that you are specifically asking, but in general, an IUD acts often as an abortifacient. Abby Johnson, former Planned Parenthood director now a pro-life advocate, wrote something that really stuck with me, about IUDs:<br /><br />http://www.abbyjohnson.org/2011/12/iuds-the-worst-choice/<br /><br />Hope that helps explain the horror that is the IUD.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-47483638934311985732012-04-28T22:12:31.462-07:002012-04-28T22:12:31.462-07:00Wow... this is quite the debate! Can't say th...Wow... this is quite the debate! Can't say that I read it all, but most of it.<br /><br />I have to say, no where on here did anyone mention the fact that SIN leads to abortion. Not contraception. Not contraception failure. Plain old selfishness, lack of faith, SIN. Am I the only pro-life Protestant on here??<br /><br />Looking for the proposed post about IUD's and abortion. I have no idea how one could come to that conclusion, but am curious to see how a Catholic might.Mehridithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15942197029954233855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-9059939713151931792011-08-11T13:58:03.250-07:002011-08-11T13:58:03.250-07:00airing, let's try this: Can you show me a soci...airing, let's try this: Can you show me a society that has accepted abortion, but which did not first accept contraception? If not, why not?<br /><br />Also, of course it's logical that someone having casual sex wants to prevent a baby from being conceived. When did I say such a mindset was illogical? Preventing a baby is why people use contraception, and it's why they have abortions, too. Very logical. And very immoral. So, I'm not getting your point.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-3520288976130955912011-08-11T13:48:48.645-07:002011-08-11T13:48:48.645-07:00stop dragging out that using contraception leads t...<i>stop dragging out that using contraception leads to an increase in abortion. Not true. </i><br /><br />But airing, you've disproven nothing. Cite your evidence. After a society accepts widespread contraception, show me the abortion rate going down.<br /><br />And of course, it's not just Janet Smith. Here is Pope John Paul II, in Evangelium Vitae:<br /><br /><i>It is frequently asserted that contraception, if made safe and available to all, is the most effective remedy against abortion. The Catholic Church is then accused of actually promoting abortion, because she obstinately continues to teach the moral unlawfulness of contraception. When looked at carefully, this objection is clearly unfounded. It may be that many people use contraception with a view to excluding the subsequent temptation of abortion. But the negative values inherent in the "contraceptive mentality"--which is very different from responsible parenthood, lived in respect for the full truth of the conjugal act--are such that they in fact<b> strengthen this temptation when an unwanted life is conceived.</b> <b>Indeed, the pro-abortion culture is especially strong precisely where the Church's teaching on contraception is rejected.</b> Certainly, from the moral point of view contraception and abortion arespecifically different evils: the former contradicts the full truth of the sexual act as the proper expression of conjugal love, while the latter destroys the life of a human being; the former is opposed to the virtue of chastity in marriage, the latter is opposed to the virtue of justice and directly violates the divine commandment "You shall not kill".<br /><br />But despite their differences of nature and moral gravity, contraception and abortion are often closely connected, <b>as fruits of the same tree.</b> It is true that in many cases contraception and even abortion are practised under the pressure of real-life difficulties, which nonetheless can never exonerate from striving to observe God's law fully. Still, in very many other instances such practices are rooted in a hedonistic mentality unwilling to accept responsibility in matters of sexuality, and they imply a self-centered concept of freedom, which regards procreation as an obstacle to personal fulfilment. The life which could result from a sexual encounter thus becomes an enemy to be avoided at all costs, and <b>abortion becomes the only possible decisive response to failed contraception.</b><br /><br /><b>The close connection which exists, in mentality, between the practice of contraception and that of abortion is becoming increasingly obvious.</b> It is being demonstrated in an alarming way by the development of chemical products, intrauterine devices and vaccines which, distributed with the same ease as contraceptives, really act as abortifacients in the very early stages of the development of the life of the new human being.</i>Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-58506294453723955112011-08-11T13:36:21.097-07:002011-08-11T13:36:21.097-07:00I have to object when correlation is presented as ...I have to object when correlation is presented as causation and when people use misleading statistics to support what they already believe. And this is what's happening to some Catholics now that the government has said that insurance companies must now cover prescription contraception with no co-pay. <br /><br />There's not more contraception options flooding the market, they're now just available for those lucky gals with insurance to not have to pay the pesky $10. <br /><br />So instead of just affirming that the Church disallows birth control because everybody should be open to life, which is a hugely legitimate argument, people like Janet Smith have to say that contraception leads to abortion which is not causation. <br /><br />Lots of people are waiting to get married and yes, having multiple sexual partners. So, they use birth control because they want the sex without the child. Immoral, maybe, yes but not illogical. And nobody wants to throw this out but the majority of humans are careless, often not sober, and utterly ignorant about their bodies. I just had a woman I work with who I consider intelligent tell me she just found out (and she's 33) that women are only fertile for 72 hours in a cycle. I couldn't believe it but frankly was not totally surprised.<br /><br />People don't know what they are doing. So, I think everyone should pray that people get a clue about life, God, and self-control and stop dragging out that using contraception leads to an increase in abortion. Not true.airing the chapelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01976906464788739315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-28354681557563252082011-04-17T14:18:50.454-07:002011-04-17T14:18:50.454-07:00Actually, I know that you are very wrong (your fac...Actually, I know that you are very wrong (your facts about the Church prove that), and you are also rude. That is what I know. I can argue and debate with atheists all day long, but rude people? Never.<br /><br />I didn't ban you in that way, I just asked you not to come back. If you had any courtesy, you would respect my request. From now on I will ignore you. But if you continue with anything obscene (your avitar alone is inappropriate) then I will simply start moderating comments, which is a shame for the rest of the readers who actually enjoy the discussions, no matter their belief system.<br /><br />Blessings!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-71225823614210108282011-04-16T20:50:10.280-07:002011-04-16T20:50:10.280-07:00By the way, jayjay, you need to learn the differen...By the way, jayjay, you need to learn the difference between fertilization and implantation.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-30439089238301905152011-04-16T20:46:42.405-07:002011-04-16T20:46:42.405-07:00jayjay, you are deleted and banned. You are offens...jayjay, you are deleted and banned. You are offensive and you can go to another blog that likes rude people. We don't tolerate ill mannered people here. God bless!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-37753050377016163692011-01-19T12:34:40.919-07:002011-01-19T12:34:40.919-07:00http://lisagraas.com/2011/01/19/sfla-responds-to-a...http://lisagraas.com/2011/01/19/sfla-responds-to-abortionist-arrest-and-infanticide-in-philadelphia/<br /><br />Abortionist committing infanticide. I'd love to hear a "pro-choice" comment on this latest news. Does it shock you?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-8476621763442989392011-01-13T17:26:23.816-07:002011-01-13T17:26:23.816-07:00http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/abby-johnso...http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/abby-johnson-reveals-details-of-pro-life-turnaround-and-catholic-conversion/<br /><br />This goes along with our discussion. Abby Johnson (who left her position at Planned Parenthood, became pro-life and now Catholic) also discovered the link between abortion and contraception, and has now denounced contraception as well. It's all connected.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-47482962682396592722011-01-12T23:28:03.504-07:002011-01-12T23:28:03.504-07:00Hi Sophie! Remember, this blog is a teaching and l...Hi Sophie! Remember, this blog is a teaching and learning blog, mostly for the Catholics who read, and also for the lurkers who are interested in the debate, to hear both sides. You wouldn't believe how many people tell me that they read all these comments, one woman saying it's like a good book that she can't put down!<br /><br />I don't think I will change Mai's mind, or Sam's, or Miss Gwen's, but that is not my point. I am not about "consensus"... I am about clarity. Each of us should be able to clearly articulate our principles and their consequences. If you read the link at the top, "The Purpose of my Blog", I go into a bit more detail.<br /><br />I'm glad you're back!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-31092203741265132402011-01-12T22:59:25.223-07:002011-01-12T22:59:25.223-07:00Just out of curiosity...Why is everyone spending s...Just out of curiosity...Why is everyone spending so long on one little post? I realize it addresses a big subject, but seriously everyone? Why is everyone making such a big deal out of it? You have your opinions, they have theirs, we have ours. I think everyone should accept it and move on. What is the point of arguing when it is clear that no one is going to change their mind?Sophie Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14305942096748916079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-85156790809066997232011-01-12T20:01:17.415-07:002011-01-12T20:01:17.415-07:00Mai, If you doubt that "PZ will think this bl...Mai, If you doubt that "PZ will think this blog is worthy of comment" then why do you bother commenting? I know I haven't dialogued with you much, but I've been reading and I have to say, you don't seem to enjoy the discussion anymore and you seem increasingly disdainful. I feel like I've read before that you were going to stop commenting (I could be wrong, so I'm sorry if I am) but you still seem to come back. It's not that I don't want you to comment; I very much like reading what you say, but if you're becoming angry, frustrated or disdainful, then maybe it isn't worth it.Meg @ True, Good and Beautifulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10507070127764766394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-76962727513368225392011-01-12T15:46:23.986-07:002011-01-12T15:46:23.986-07:00Sarah, excellent points! You are right about dioce...Sarah, excellent points! You are right about diocesan priests not taking a vow of poverty. Most order priests do, but not diocesan. <br /><br />I am so glad you piped in with those thoughts.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-68403137248908033562011-01-12T15:07:56.573-07:002011-01-12T15:07:56.573-07:00Okay, I absolutely can't get back into the deb...Okay, I absolutely can't get back into the debate :) (Don't have time), but in catching up with comments, just wanted to add a clarification: It's my understanding that diocesan priests typically do not take a vow of poverty. So if you see a priest driving a nice car, don't assume he broke a vow. <br /><br />Secondly, if you see a priest driving a nice car: Don't assume he bought it. I know plenty of priests who inherited all they own from a family member or were gifted things that they were allowed to use for a greater good.<br /><br />As is the case with most priests (including our pope), they don't own much. When Pope BXVI dies, he doesn't get to will the Vatican to next of kin. :)Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04966555296621723142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-83190117909504765292011-01-12T14:44:39.856-07:002011-01-12T14:44:39.856-07:00I doubt PZ will think this blog is worthy of comme...<i>I doubt PZ will think this blog is worthy of comment, actually.</i><br /><br />Gosh, Mai, thanks?<br /><br />Anyway, I have allowed Sam to keep commenting, mostly because I want people to continue to see what kind of person he is. You have not been terribly rude, and while you have not been as kind as Mrs. M, or Matt in Seattle, you have also <i>not</i> called me a liar repeatedly or threatened me, as Sam has. So, why would I not want you here? I have generally enjoyed our dialogues. Maybe you have not, but I have.<br /><br />I am not interested in "keeping up traffic" for traffic's sake. I don't really care who reads the blog, or how many. I enjoy it, and it's mostly a record for my children one day.<br /><br />If no atheists come around, that's fine, and it's fine if they do. I mostly want to reach Catholics who don't know their faith well.<br /><br />As for the moderation... I went and looked at the type of comments and people who are at that blog. I don't think that those folks would come here to respectfully dialogue. I am pretty sure there might be some malice there, and I don't feel like sitting by my computer watching dozens of nasty comments come in. In fact, I cannot do so, since I have kids to feed and drive and play with. So, moderation is necessary until I feel the threat from Sam (or his minions) is over. You seemed to imply that the people on Myers' blog would not be here as good dialogue partners. So, what mother of eight do you know who could let things go unmoderated? <br /><br />If he does find me "worthy" (ha!), then I will be happy to publish even the nastier comments of the atheists. But I will need to see them first, so that there is not a free-for-all. I hope you can understand that, logistically and practically.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-18380612406171491132011-01-12T14:11:54.178-07:002011-01-12T14:11:54.178-07:00I doubt PZ will think this blog is worthy of comme...I doubt PZ will think this blog is worthy of comment, actually. But if he does, it certainly will be exciting around here for a while. Oh, except that you are moderating all comments, in anticipation. So maybe not. <br /><br />I certainly am glad that you are allowing me to continue posting here, Leila. Very magnanimous of you. Looks like Sam isn't welcome, and neither would PZ's people be. So ... what is it about me particularly that is acceptable? <br /><br />However, I'm getting a little tired of it these days, and think I'll take a break. I certainly hope you continue to have 'acceptable' atheists come along, to continue having discussions, so you can keep up your traffic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-29480684014422110732011-01-12T13:39:35.966-07:002011-01-12T13:39:35.966-07:00Interesting. Sam's atheist friend with the ath...Interesting. Sam's atheist friend with the atheist blog (that is supposedly going to post about the Bubble) is PZ Myers... the same class act who made headlines for threatening to desecrate the Eucharist online for all to see. (I believe he did go ahead with the desecration, and then threw the Host in the garbage.) I thought his name was familiar. <br /><br />Nice for Mai to be all giddy about the possibility of the havoc he and his atheist buddies could wreak here. Apparently she and Sam admire Professor Myers very much.<br /><br />I can think of better men to admire. <br /><br />Anyway, here is some info on the desecration, but you can google him and find more, including a wikipedia entry. <br /><br />http://discoverthefaith.com/2008/07/26/update-on-professor-myers-desecration-of-eucharist/Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-86280786895355927992011-01-12T13:17:46.629-07:002011-01-12T13:17:46.629-07:00Ha, I missed the "oust" comment. That...Ha, I missed the "oust" comment. That's hilarious. Sam, look at Notre Dame. The people who invited Obama to speak are still sitting pretty despite being a "Catholic" university. Professor X has nothing to fear from a simple blog post criticizing his cafeteria Catholicism, believe me.JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.com