tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post2738560228056955688..comments2024-03-21T04:02:46.799-07:00Comments on Little Catholic Bubble: Quick Takes, the Quick EditionLeila@LittleCatholicBubblehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comBlogger264125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-13303221468878893022012-09-07T21:30:07.741-07:002012-09-07T21:30:07.741-07:00"Heidi, I wasn’t making an argument I was mak..."Heidi, I wasn’t making an argument I was making an irrefutable aside that pro-lifers won’t admit. <br /><br />Rebecca Kissling and Leila’s nice friend should never have been conceived. You can’t be born if you’ve never been conceived. Its really not an argument just a stand-alone irrefutable fact. It doesn’t mean they should or shouldn’t have been aborted or have ‘no right to life’. It means literally as it says--- they shouldn’t have been conceived and thus born."<br /><br />Actually you are arguing something here - you are saying that merely because their conception did not occur in an ideal way, they should not exist. You are claiming that because their conception was not ideal, they should not exist. <br /><br />However, that's kind of a smokescreen. The fact of the matter is they were conceived, and therefore, they do exist. We're not living in a fantasy world here - arguing that they should not exist is kind of beside the point. It's not an "aside".....it's a distraction from the real point.<br /><br />We are agreeing that their conception was not ideal - no one is disputing that - but we cannot focus on that and ignore the fact that they were conceived, through no fault of their own. Lots of things happen that are not ideal - does that mean we throw it all out?<br /><br />For example, I happen to know, in real life, the couple in one of Leila's quick takes - Chris and Angela Faddis. What they are living now is definitely less-than-ideal (She's dying from colon cancer - as in, actively dying and her funeral is already scheduled). She is suffering - unbearably, I would say. I'd even go so far as to call it "torturous," using a word from earlier in the conversation. Watching her struggle to talk, to move, to live is painful. But yet through all of that pain and suffering, some amazing things are happening. Incredible stories of healing from those following her struggle. Stories of relationships being renewed, incredible graces and blessings falling upon people through her. <br /><br />Incredible good is coming from unbearable evil. <br /><br />What are your thoughts with regard to this situation? Is it possible that good can come from evil?<br /><br />Can acts have consequences? Could it be possible that a bad action could have a positive or good consequence?Heidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01185792549179757757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-5944488003060230602012-09-07T21:16:46.906-07:002012-09-07T21:16:46.906-07:00"Well it depends on the activity Some things ..."Well it depends on the activity Some things are objectively bad <br /><br />But most (or at least many things) are bad because they produce bad things."<br /><br /><br />This helps, a lot.<br /><br />Can you tell me some of the things you would call "objectively bad?"<br /><br /><br />If something isn't on that list, can it only be bad if it produces bad results? Like, say, cheating on a test. If you pass the test and don't get caught, is the cheating still bad? There were no bad results, were there? No one got hurt?<br /><br />Or if two consenting adults commit adultery, and no one ever finds out....no one is hurt, and there were no bad results, right? So is adultery not objectively bad? <br /><br />I really want to hear your thought process - I'm not trying to be snarky. I want to hear what you think about these things.<br /><br /><br />Also, is it possible for good to ever come from bad? Can you give me an example of a situation where something "bad" happened....but it led to a good?<br /><br />Heidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01185792549179757757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-28453636072379396032012-09-07T19:50:33.961-07:002012-09-07T19:50:33.961-07:00Heidi
“You said that 'I am rationalizing that ...Heidi<br />“You said that 'I am rationalizing that the activities aren’t evil but the fruits are”<br /><br /><br />Well it depends on the activity Some things are objectively bad <br /><br />But most (or at least many things) are bad because they produce bad things.<br /><br /><br />I am not against eating skittles for 3 meals a day for any other reason than will it make you sick and unhealthy. If the manufactures were able to infuse skittles with the nutrition facts of broccoli I would have no problem with excessive skittle consumption<br /><br />To the extent that casual sex produces 'bad things' I am against it. But I don't think its intrinsically more evil than skittles are. Though I would caution anyone against including in both in excess because of the associated risks.<br /><br />~CS<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-51580752446051631312012-09-07T18:48:33.421-07:002012-09-07T18:48:33.421-07:00So maybe now we are getting somewhere, CS.
Like I...So maybe now we are getting somewhere, CS.<br /><br />Like I said: <br /><br />Conceptions in these circumstances should not occur, because the sin itself should not occur:<br /><br />Rape<br />hook-ups<br />adultery<br />out of wedlock<br />IVF<br />IUI<br /><br />And yet, <i>from the beginning of time</i>, human beings have been conceived from those first four situations, and more recently, from the last two as well. <br /><br /><i>People have been conceived in sin from the beginning of human history. </i>Agreed?<br /><br />Now, once a child is conceived from sin, what do we do? That is where another moral question comes in. Do we kill the child who is conceived in sin, adding another sin to the first? <br /><br />The Christian response is <i>no</i>.<br /><br />Untold millions of wonderful human beings, each one a gift, have come out of evil circumstances. This is what we Christians mean when we say that God can bring a greater good out of even the most heinous evil. The murder of God on a Cross was the greatest evil the world has ever seen and that man has ever done. And God took the evil and brought from it the very redemption of the world. From death and sin, He brought forth Life.<br /><br />You don't care about the theology, I get that. But my audience is and has always been Catholics, and I want <i>them</i> to see and understand, even if you do not.<br /><br />One can condemn an evil such as rape and not translate that to condemning and executing the child conceived of that rape.<br /><br />If you are asking if I can see that it would be a horror for women to conceive from a rape? OF COURSE. As you can clearly see in what I have <b>already</b> written:<br /><br /><i>But sometimes, we are required to go through great, almost unbearable suffering, to avoid doing evil. Yes, sometimes heroic virtue is required of us. I am not saying that everyone has the fortitude to do it (we are weak, and life is very, very hard), but yes, we have the obligation to do good and avoid evil.</i><br /><br />What part of that do you not understand? Do you get from that that I said that being raped and impregnated is a walk in the park? I think you know exactly what I meant.<br /><br />Now, if you could answer Heidi's question about consequences vs. acts.<br /><br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-50977895918767010962012-09-07T18:46:15.040-07:002012-09-07T18:46:15.040-07:00CS,
No one denied that rape is traumatic. No one ...CS,<br /><br />No one denied that rape is traumatic. No one denied that pregnancy after rape is traumatic. What we contend is that it is wrong to murder an innocent human being regardless of the circumstances of the conception and pregnancy. <br /><br />If my husband was to go off his bipolar disorder medication and, say, beat me, I should not then be able to murder my four born children because they remind me of him and the trauma I endured. I hope you'd agree with that.<br /><br />And yes, you did say that anyone conceived in rape is a vile human being. Why is Rebecca responsible for the crime of her biological father?JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-28041956994682448602012-09-07T18:20:15.012-07:002012-09-07T18:20:15.012-07:00Heidi,
“I’m just curious you’re arguing that Rebe...Heidi, <br />“I’m just curious you’re arguing that Rebecca should not exist merely because of her conception did not take place in ideal situation. So therefore because her conception was not ideal she has no right to be alive.”<br /><br />Heidi, I wasn’t making an argument I was making an irrefutable aside that pro-lifers won’t admit. <br /><br />Rebecca Kissling and Leila’s nice friend should never have been conceived. You can’t be born if you’ve never been conceived. Its really not an argument just a stand-alone irrefutable fact. It doesn’t mean they should or shouldn’t have been aborted or have ‘no right to life’. It means literally as it says--- they shouldn’t have been conceived and thus born.<br /><br />~CSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-90361566206540509342012-09-07T18:19:36.991-07:002012-09-07T18:19:36.991-07:00Leila said
“Please make sure that no one you eve...Leila said <br /><br />“Please make sure that no one you ever love in your life, including any man you eventually do want to marry, was adopted with unknown circumstance or conceived violently. You could not possibly love a vile thing such as that.”<br /><br />LOL. Just LOL. <br />So In your mind, finding the idea of being raped and impregnated repulsive means that you automatically find ALL people conceived in rape disgusting. Being repulsed by your own pregnancy means you are automatically repulsed by other people conceived in rape??<br /><br />Guess I must hate all English teachers everywhere even those I haven’t met because I really disliked my 6 grade English teacher. <br />~CSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-85395130411122309532012-09-07T18:16:46.600-07:002012-09-07T18:16:46.600-07:00Leila,
Sometimes you are so focused on making pr...Leila, <br /><br />Sometimes you are so focused on making pro-life arguments, you rebut pro-choice arguments I'm not even making. <br /><br />This entire dialogue started when Johanne, a woman who was ACTUALLY brutally raped and impregnated said, <br />"it can be unbelievably traumatic to consider carrying a pregnancy to term and delivering a baby that will be around forever. That is a fact, no matter how inconvenient it is to your ideology."<br /><br />I agreed with her. You don't have to be in support of abortion to understand the urge of not wanting a child with your rapist. You could get off of your high horse for one second and actually empathize with a rape victim. You can understand why having a baby in rape is revolting to the women and still maintain that abortion shouldn't be an option. You can understand why the woman is disgusted with the child and maintain that she still shouldn’t get an abortion.<br /><br />~CSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-86629618695017980712012-09-06T10:13:24.168-07:002012-09-06T10:13:24.168-07:00Heidi, whoa, that is an excellent analysis! I hadn...Heidi, whoa, that is an excellent analysis! I hadn't even thought of that. It seems like CS is lamenting consequences, rather than focusing on the acts that precede the consequences.<br /><br />She seems to want acts to have no consequences, and yet that is impossible.<br /><br />Thank you for that insight!<br /><br /><i>In your opinion, what would the ideal world look like? How would you achieve it? Let's have a conversation about that.</i><br /><br />I hope this conversation happens.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-73218326349903369392012-09-06T09:52:19.649-07:002012-09-06T09:52:19.649-07:00CS, question for you:
What does your ideal world ...CS, question for you:<br /><br />What does your ideal world look like?<br /><br /><br />I'm just curious - you are arguing that Rebecca should not exist merely because her conception did not take place in an ideal situation. So, therefore, because her conception was not ideal.......she has no right to be alive.<br /><br />But yet, you've mentioned before that in an ideal world, there'd be no heartache, no using of people, no "sobbing" (as Leila likes to quote). In an ideal world, there'd be no misuse of resources or the environment, you've also mentioned.<br /><br />In each of these instances, you seem to have disregarded the actual activity that you see as less-than-ideal (the rape, the casual sex, the use of resources, etc) and instead are focused on devaluing the fruits of that activity (Rebecca, the emotional response, the loss of the environment, the economic disparities, etc). All of these things seem to be horrible in your eyes. You seem to be numbing yourself by rationalizing that the activities aren't the evil, but the fruits of it are.<br /><br />In your opinion, what would the ideal world look like? How would you achieve it? Let's have a conversation about that. Heidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01185792549179757757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-72683292046545972122012-09-06T09:14:30.214-07:002012-09-06T09:14:30.214-07:00It seems the height of irony that you find the exi...It seems the height of irony that you find the existence of Rebecca to be offensive, and yet <i>her own mother</i> (on whose behalf you seem to be speaking) is so grateful that she is here, and loves her infinitely. Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-61742260107748135172012-09-06T09:10:02.526-07:002012-09-06T09:10:02.526-07:00No, CS, she shouldn't have. Rape should never,...No, CS, she shouldn't have. Rape should never, ever occur. And, IVF should not occur, and premarital sex should not occur, and adulterous affairs, and orgies, and incestuous relationships -- all those things should not occur.<br /><br />All of those acts can produce new human beings.<br /><br />And no innocent human being should be executed for the sins of the parents. And no human being is vile or disgusting. And no human being should be described as not worthy of walking around, or having a life and a family and grandchildren, etc.<br /><br />Make distinctions, CS. Be a clear thinker. The evil of rape does not transform murder into a good.<br /><br />Distinctions. <br /><br />Rape = evil<br />Murder = evil<br /><br />That's how it works, CS.<br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-90166309406727492202012-09-06T09:00:20.408-07:002012-09-06T09:00:20.408-07:00Leila,
Should Rebecca Kissinger mother have been ...Leila,<br /><br />Should Rebecca Kissinger mother have been raped?<br /><br />Yes or no?<br /><br />-csAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-87261262626017155212012-09-06T08:55:39.087-07:002012-09-06T08:55:39.087-07:00I sure would like to see Leila have a successful d...<i>I sure would like to see Leila have a successful discussion with any atheist. Just one. </i><br /><br />And what does "successful discussion" look like in your eyes, MaiZeke?<br />Because "successful discussion" to most people involves intellectual honesty, consistency, and well articulated arguments. Not emotional grenade launches, duck and runs, and snide sideline heckling. <br /><br />The rest of us would like to see the usual atheists here have an intellectually honest and consistent discussion with any Catholic. Just one that doesn't delineate into an emotional vampiring of the topic at hand.<br /><br />Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-12249480516507317392012-09-06T08:30:16.420-07:002012-09-06T08:30:16.420-07:00I'd actually thought this was a successful con...I'd actually thought this was a successful conversation. There has been very little name calling. Ideas are being discussed and fleshed out, instead of generalizations and blanket dismissals. Could you elaborate what you mean? Thanks!Heidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01185792549179757757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-63979000730356337822012-09-06T07:46:11.909-07:002012-09-06T07:46:11.909-07:00Let me be more specific in my question.
MaiZeke, ...Let me be more specific in my question.<br /><br />MaiZeke, you said:<br /><br /><i>I sure would like to see Leila have a successful discussion with any atheist. Just one. </i><br /><br />What would a "successful discussion" with an atheist look like?<br /><br />Please stick around long enough to answer. <br /><br />Thanks!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-4561086912621190832012-09-06T07:42:51.876-07:002012-09-06T07:42:51.876-07:00MaiZeke, you popped back in! I am glad you are sti...MaiZeke, you popped back in! I am glad you are still so compelled by this blog and the discussions therein.<br /><br />Your comment is really vague. Could you elaborate?<br /><br />Also, now that you're back, could you answer that question I put to you? Why is abortion "bad" as you've said? You said it was because it killed a "potential" life. But if it's not an <i>actual</i> life that is being killed, then why is abortion "bad"? <br /><br />Thanks!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-9134754679640738552012-09-06T06:10:03.590-07:002012-09-06T06:10:03.590-07:00I sure would like to see Leila have a successful d...I sure would like to see Leila have a successful discussion with any atheist. Just one. <br /><br />She claims it is all our fault (see http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2012/02/heres-almost-latimes-article.html) but as I pointed out there, the common denominator in the interactions seems to be ... Leila.<br />Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07052774273963187257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-36186539417829498082012-09-06T01:07:14.006-07:002012-09-06T01:07:14.006-07:00Stolen from my daughter's facebook, as Wednesd...Stolen from my daughter's facebook, as Wednesday was Blessed Mother Teresa's feast day:<br /><br /><i>A sacrifice to be real must cost, must hurt, must empty ourselves. The fruit of silence is prayer, the fruit of prayer is faith, the fruit of faith is love, the fruit of love is service, the fruit of service is peace. -Blessed Mother Teresa</i><br /><br />Mother Teresa, pray for us.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-70272142611859477872012-09-06T00:07:58.321-07:002012-09-06T00:07:58.321-07:00And yes, I get the irony that I said I wouldn'...And yes, I get the irony that I said I wouldn't even respond, then I responded. But believe me, I held back. Time to start praying a daily rosary again.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-13256967506401807342012-09-05T21:42:01.746-07:002012-09-05T21:42:01.746-07:00I meant to say, she is a reader of the Bubble.I meant to say, she is a reader of the Bubble.Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-91974864446873396602012-09-05T21:41:38.418-07:002012-09-05T21:41:38.418-07:00By the way, CS, one of the most beautiful souls in...By the way, CS, one of the most beautiful souls in the world, a gentle and loving wife and mother of a small son, who has taken in her troubled teen nephews so that they won't go to foster care, was conceived in rape.<br /><br />I pray to God that she does not read your disgusting, despicable words about her existence in this world. <br /><br />Seriously, I am pissed beyond words. I need to walk away from this….Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-37314254684668913792012-09-05T21:39:01.425-07:002012-09-05T21:39:01.425-07:00CS, your implication about the vileness of Rebecca...CS, your implication about the vileness of Rebecca's existence (and others conceived in rape) is so far beyond the pale that I refuse to respond. God bless Heidi for doing what I won't.<br /><br />And, no, I don't think any human child or adult is vile or disgusting, nor would their future family's existence make my skin crawl.<br /><br />Some sentiments and ideologies, though, do make my skin crawl, and I will leave it at that.<br /><br />Thank you for putting your thoughts out so clearly for all to see, and please make sure that no one you ever love in your life, including any man you eventually do want to marry, was adopted with unknown circumstance or conceived violently. You could not possibly love a vile thing such as that.<br /><br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-15787440830273013442012-09-05T19:25:41.000-07:002012-09-05T19:25:41.000-07:00"Knowing there is a person and presumably a l..."Knowing there is a person and presumably a line of people who exist because of a torturous experience you went through....that is such a disgusting thought that just makes my skin crawl, but I guess you don't feel this way."<br /><br />Is there no such thing as heroic action, or would that be stupid in your eyes?<br /><br />Think of those men in Colorado that jumped in front of a bullet for the women they were with. Or the men on Flight 93 who tried to overcome the hijackers.<br /><br />There are women alive today because those men went through a "torturous experience" (at least, I'd consider dying because of loss of blood on the floor of a yucky, sticky movie theater torturous).<br /><br />If those men on Flight 93 had been successful, they would have saved an entire plane full of people, very possibly at the risk of death or serious injury to their own persons.<br /><br />Should they not have done that?<br /><br />Is there such a thing as heroic virtue, in your eyes?Heidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01185792549179757757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-240447238522390484.post-78618022197586229472012-09-05T19:22:22.815-07:002012-09-05T19:22:22.815-07:00CS - But how do two wrongs make it right?
Let...CS - But how do two wrongs make it right?<br /><br /><br />Let's say you yourself were conceived in rape. Work with me here - let your imagination go there.<br /><br />Does that make you less valuable? How do you feel reading that you should never have been born, that you should have been killed?<br /><br /><br />Heidihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01185792549179757757noreply@blogger.com